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Saved by Baptism

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by tulpje, Jan 23, 2002.

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  1. tulpje

    tulpje Guest

    I would like to know why Dr. Bob thinks that being saved by baptism is "evil". What is evil is the idea that you can save yourself by making a decision for God. By thinking that you can make such a decision, you are taking the glory from God himself. We are naturally enemies of The Most High. We are incapable of coming to the Lord on our own. The Spirit leads us to God through his grace, and the means of grace is his Word. Grace alone + Faith alone + Scripture alone

    “The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons” (1 Timothy 4:1). With the phrase “things taught by demons,” Paul refers to Satan’s covert methods of attack. The “things taught by demons” are nothing more than the teachings of false teachers. Today false teachings are abundant, not only in society but even in the church. Some false teachings are more obvious than others. The most damaging is the belief that you can earn your salvation.

    tulpje
    (little tulip)

    [ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: tulpje ]
     
    #1 tulpje, Jan 23, 2002
  2. tulpje

    tulpje Guest

    Dear Dr. Bob,

    I'm sorry that I inappropriately posted under that thread. I admire your concern for the original poster. It truly is admireable. After Adam suggested that I posted my oppinions in this thread I happily opliged, as you can see in this post. I think in my jounrney as a God fearing Christian that I need to learn a little more humility as well as subservience. Women in our denomination are taught that we are to submit to our husbands and in the church and that we should express this by example in the community. I hope that you accept my apology.

    However, I don't think that you truly understand the sacrement of Holy Baptism. It is not works at all. We are saved through grace during Baptism through the Spirit as God's Holy Word is in the water of Baptism which makes it a means of grace as is revealed in Luther's explaination of the third article of the Apostles Creed:

    I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Christian Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

    What does this mean?

    I believe that I cannot by my own thinking or choosing believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to him.

    But the Holy Spirit has called me by the gospel, enlightened me with his gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith. In the same way he calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith.

    In this Christian Church he daily and fully forgives all sins to me and all believers. On the Last Day he will raise me and all the dead, and give eternal life to me and all believers in Christ. This is most certainly true.

    tulpje
    (little tulip)
     
    #2 tulpje, Jan 23, 2002
  3. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Abraham was found righteous before he was circumcised. We are found righteous before actual baptism.

    If someone thinks that baptism is unimportant and hardens his heart against it, then this person has shown a rebellious heart. God has commanded His followers to be baptized. Anyone unwilling to follow God's commands is not a Christian.
     
    #3 Eladar, Jan 23, 2002
  4. tulpje

    tulpje Guest

    You are right in that it is the Word of God that actually saves us. A christian can be saved without baptism. So, since you are exposed to the Word, you were saved. What makes a baptism a baptism is God's Holy Word in the water. Not the water itself. Baptism saves babies who have never heard the Word, but in adults it strengthens their faith. I personally attribute being saved through my baptism because although I already had faith in God, I was enlightened by the Spirit that day(yes I was baptized as an adult). It was like a light turning on. Like my pastor and I discussed, I was stumbling around in the darkness before. Now I am a child of the light. Yes, baptism is a part of the great comission. We are to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. Amen

    tulpje
    (little tulip)
     
    #4 tulpje, Jan 23, 2002
  5. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Baptism saves babies who have never heard the Word, but in adults it strengthens their faith. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    According to Paul's description of how Abraham was saved, what you said is incorrect.

    Abraham was found righteous because of his faith. Physical acts in themselves mean nothing. Since babies have no idea about what is going on and have no decision in the matter, baptizing a baby means absolutely nothing to the baby in a spiritual sense.
     
    #5 Eladar, Jan 23, 2002
  6. Sir Ed

    Sir Ed New Member

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    Tuor, Abraham is irrelevant here. He was under the old covenant.

    You are correct that physical acts in themselves mean nothing.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Since babies have no idea about what is going on and have no decision in the matter, baptizing a baby means absolutely nothing to the baby in a spiritual sense. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Did you have any idea what was going on the first time the Spirit entered you? Was it before or after it entered you? Have you talked to a baby and asked them if they knew what was going on? Where does Scripture say anything about making a decision in having the Spirit come to someone?
     
    #6 Sir Ed, Jan 23, 2002
  7. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    So you are trying to say that Paul's argument about salvation is actually meaningless. Romans 4:1-10

    I see...

    [ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: Tuor ]
     
    #7 Eladar, Jan 23, 2002
  8. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    Officially, we are not saved by baptism. Catholics are saved by Jesus Christ who gave us baptism as his intrustment. In a sense you could say we are saved by baptism, however it is Christ who is working through that baptism as we enter his death and resurrection through the waters of New Life.

    peace
     
    #8 TP, Jan 23, 2002
  9. UncleRay

    UncleRay New Member

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    Dear Tulpje,
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Apostles Creed:

    I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Christian Church, the communion of saints,
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Didn't you mean "the holy catholic church" small "c" catholic?
    The Apostle's Creed I read, even as a Protestant, said "holy catholic church".

    In fact the creed in the Catholic Church (big C), Nicene and Apostle's creeds refer to the "catholic" small "c" Church.

    If I jumped too quick on a typo, I'm Sorry, big "S". :D Or is there another creed for Baptists?

    Grace and peace,
    uncle ray
     
    #9 UncleRay, Jan 23, 2002
  10. Sir Ed

    Sir Ed New Member

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    Tuor, no. However, it has nothing to do with baptism.

    Uncle Ray, unfortunately, many Protestants, in their attempt to distance themselves from anything "Catholic" have taken to altering the Creeds.
     
    #10 Sir Ed, Jan 23, 2002
  11. tulpje

    tulpje Guest

    Hi Uncle Ray! [​IMG]

    It's a valid question. The one that I learned and say every night before I go to bed and in the morning when I wake up says catholic with a small "c". However, I cut and pasted that from the WELS site (www.wels.net)For some reason they changed all the creeds to say Holy Christian church. I'm not sure why. I think that it might be offensive to the reformed chruches. They must think that the creeds are too Catholic with a big "C". I prefer the old way myself. The meaning hasn't changed. catholic with a small "c" means the whole church. Not just the catholics. Hope that helps [​IMG]

    tulpje
    (little tulip)
     
    #11 tulpje, Jan 23, 2002
  12. Daniel Davidson

    Daniel Davidson New Member

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    tulipje, to answer your question, it's because he thinks he is saved by his own action of faith rather than through the grace that God provides in baptism. That's why he yells at you in bold face: yelling makes what you're saying more true! Look for some of his comments on verses like "the like symbol, baptism, now saves you." You'll be so twisted and contorted mentally that you'll start yelling too. Look at it this way. He's been preaching an anti-baptism message for so long now, has a flock of his own, and is a Dr. If he even considers entertains the notion that some of these verses about baptism mean, at a minimum, what they literally say ... well, you get the picture. So, he yells.

    You can read the rules for interpreting baptism (spoof) in this thread:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=28&t=000545

    look for my posts ;)

    Hey, my welcome here was pretty ugly too. I had the nerve, in mid-September, to suggest that we ought not look forward with so much glee to the death of Afghans. I was called a pathetic hippie, a coward, and all sorts of other nice stuff. One board member even emailed me privately offering me the opportunity to go "man to man" with him, anytime, anyplace.
     
    #12 Daniel Davidson, Jan 23, 2002
  13. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    For by grace ye are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God Ephesians 2:8-9

    What is the gift of God that saves us? Baptism? No, faith saves us. I know its tough to believe that it could be that simple, but its true.

    UNP
    Adam
     
    #13 Brother Adam, Jan 23, 2002
  14. Kathy

    Kathy New Member

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    I am definitely with Adam here...I truly believe in baptism, however, I do not believe that baptism saves us. What of the thief on the cross? He was never baptised, so does that mean that Jesus lied to him when He told him that he would be with Him in paradise that very day?

    I'm just curious too tulpje, what scripture are you basing your belief on? Thanks!

    Kathy
    &lt;&gt;&lt;
     
    #14 Kathy, Jan 23, 2002
  15. Miss Bobbie

    Miss Bobbie <img src="http://our.homewithgod.com/wrightsboro/g

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    Before I was baptized (with 7 others) in my current Baptist church, the pastor made a point of stating that baptism is not connected with salvation. It's just the outward, "public" sign that we have recieved salvation. Baptism comes AFTER salvation; it is not a subsitute or alternate.

    My parents had all of us kids baptized by sprinkling in the Methodist church in '65, and apparently seemed to think that that action took care of salvation, as we didn't return to church much after that. To my way of thinking, that "baptism" just didn't count - we kids had no voice in the matter at all.

    I attended my granddaughter's baptism in the Catholic church when she was 10 months old. I don't think that counts, either. [​IMG]

    Wouldn't I just LOVE to get that child into the Baptist church! :D

    [ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: Miss Bobbie ]
     
    #15 Miss Bobbie, Jan 23, 2002
  16. Daniel Davidson

    Daniel Davidson New Member

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    Wouldn't it be nice if we had an understanding of baptism, grace and salvation that embraced all that the scripture had to say about them. An understanding in which "you are saved by grace through faith" was not the enemy of "baptism now saves us," "he who believes and is baptised will be saved," "[to be saved you must] repent and be baptized." An understanding where a believer could accept the most literal, direct, and obvious meanings of those verses, without appealing to denials and distortions.

    Scripture says grace saves us. Scripture says baptism saves us. There is no antagonism between the two statements. The Holy Spirit sees no conflict. Why should we?
     
    #16 Daniel Davidson, Jan 23, 2002
  17. tulpje

    tulpje Guest

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flyfree432:
    For by grace ye are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God Ephesians 2:8-9

    What is the gift of God that saves us? Baptism? No, faith saves us. I know its tough to believe that it could be that simple, but its true.

    UNP
    Adam    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That's right Adam! God gives us saving faith through Grace. And what are the means of grace? The Word and the Sacrements which combine the Word with earthly elements.

    What verses support this? (You asked for it! [​IMG] )
    The Sacrement of Holy Baptism-Luther's small Catechism

    What is Baptism?
    Answer:Baptism is not simply plain water. Instead it is water used according to God's command and conected to God's word.

    What then is this Word of God?
    Answer: Where our Lord says in Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make deciples of every nation baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit."

    What gifts or benefits does Baptism grant?
    Answer: It brings about forgiveness of sins, redeems from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe it, as the Word and promise of God declare.

    What is this Word and promise of God?
    Answer: Where our Lord Jesus Christ says in Mark 16:16, "The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who does not believe will be condemned."

    How can water do such great things?
    Answer: Clearly water does not do it, but the Word of God which is with, in and among the water, and faith, which trusts this Word of God in the water. For without the Word of God the water is plain water and not a baptism, but with the Word of God it is a baptism, that is, a grace filled water of life and a "bath of the new birth in the Holy Spirit." As St. Paul says to Titus in 3:5-8, "He saved us not through any works of righteousness thta we had done, but according to his mercy through the water and rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit. This Spirit he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." This is most certainly true.

    What is the signifgance os such a baptism with water?
    Answer: It signifies that daily the old person in us with all our evil sins and desires is drowned through sorrow for sin adn repentance, and daily a new person is to rise forth and live before God in righteousness and purity forever.

    Where is this written?
    Answer: St Paul says in Romans 6:3-4, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore we have been burried with him by baptism into death, so that just as Christ was raised from the deaad by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] :D :D :D
     
    #17 tulpje, Jan 23, 2002
  18. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    St. Paul gives us the dilemma that we are in due to Adam's transgression and the solution found in Christ in Romans 5. He then pursues how to get out of Adam and into Christ in Romans 6.

    Paul doesn't tell us to accept Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Saviour into our hearts, though he would probably have thought it a very good thing to do, of course. Paul tells us that we receive Christ in baptism; it is in baptism that we put on Christ Jesus.

    And, it is through baptism that one is born again.

    St. Irenaeus, Bishop of Gaul, wrote circa 180 A.D.:

    " 'And dipped himself seven times in Jordan.' It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" (Fragment 34)

    And, accordingly, Christianity, from the outset, has seen Baptism as the sacramentum by which we are reborn as children of God into the Family of God, which is the Church. Baptists follow the Anabaptist tradition, which dates only back several centuries, whereas the Catholic tradition dates back to the Apostles.

    The Catholic Church is the Church of Christ, and only if Baptists truly knew the ontological weight and value of the Catholic Church, they would fill the RCIA programs in Catholic parishes like bumblebees flocking to sunflowers.

    Praise you Jesus and thank you.
     
    #18 Carson Weber, Jan 23, 2002
  19. Sir Ed

    Sir Ed New Member

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    Adam said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> For by grace ye are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God Ephesians 2:8-9
    What is the gift of God that saves us? Baptism? No, faith saves us. I know its tough to believe that it could be that simple, but its true <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Exactly. Baptism is a gift of God; a means the Lord uses to give us faith. That faith then saves us.

    Kathy said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I am definitely with Adam here...I truly believe in baptism, however, I do not believe that baptism saves us. What of the thief on the cross? He was never baptised, so does that mean that Jesus lied to him when He told him that he would be with Him in paradise that very day? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No, Jesus didn't lie to him. However, Jesus was not yet dead and arisen. The old covenant hadn't been replaced with the new. On another note, I'm sure Jesus (He is God you know!) could make any exception he wanted to that day. [​IMG]

    Bobbie said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Before I was baptized (with 7 others) in my current Baptist church, the pastor made a point of stating that baptism is not connected with salvation. It's just the outward, "public" sign that we have recieved salvation. Baptism comes AFTER salvation; it is not a subsitute or alternate. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You should study the Scriptures yourself and not just trust what some man told you. You will find there is no Scripture that makes note of this "public sign" nonsense.

    Peace be with you.
     
    #19 Sir Ed, Jan 24, 2002
  20. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Sir Ed,

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the argument for infant baptism uses circumcision of babies as a basis.

    Circumcision was used as a sign of community, just as baptism is a sign of community.

    If this is true, Romans 4 is very relevent.
     
    #20 Eladar, Jan 24, 2002
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