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Saved by Baptism

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by tulpje, Jan 23, 2002.

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  1. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    Wow that was quite a leap ELCA to WELS, you couldn't ask for a more divergent viewpoints and still call it lutheran.

    Yes the Bible is the Absolute authority and yes the Creeds are important. They rank right below the Bible in importance.

    Baptism alone is not going to save someone. Baptism is also something God does for us not us for God. One of these days the Baptists are going to wake up and realize that they are incapable of doing anything for God. It obviously plays some role in salvation otherwise it would not have been mentioned in Mk 16:16 and 1 Pt 3:21. It also seems obvious that it has something to do with the forgiveness of sins Acts 2:38, 22:16;Gal 3:26-27. Which means it can not be a work of man as those who believe it to be a symbolic confession insist it is. Because only God can grant salvation and forgiveness of sins.
     
    #101 Chemnitz, Jan 27, 2002
  2. tulpje

    tulpje Guest

    Amen Godmetal! By the way, you are Lutheran, aren't you? what synod do you belong to? I changed over just about 3 months ago. I could no longer deal with the heresies of the elca. I love the wels [​IMG] I feel like i little angel [​IMG] hehe I only wish that they had communion more often. little things like that took some getting adujusted to aaas I had it every Sunday at my elca church. Communion is like a hug from God [​IMG] I need it... you know?
     
    #102 tulpje, Jan 28, 2002
  3. tulpje

    tulpje Guest

    ....Holy Communion Another thing Baptists will never understand. hahaha

    (and another thread)
     
    #103 tulpje, Jan 28, 2002
  4. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sir Ed:
    Tuor, you do. They aren't anymore capable of "making a decision for Jesus" than an infant.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Neither are they capable of sin.

    ***Sorry, I just saw this one***
     
    #104 Eladar, Jan 28, 2002
  5. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Tulpje, I think it is sad that you are so strung out on Baptism. How do you share that message of "Baptism Saves" (I know it is grace that saves and baptism is an expression of that grace) with people outside the Lutheran church walls. You try taking that complex message to a street person and you will get no where. How about a tribesman in the jungle? You can barely make sense of baptism in terms of clear definition yet you want to say that God would choose such a complex system of getting people to fellowship with him. I have NEVER met a RC or a L who cared to share the Gospel with a lost world, primarily because either they don't understand the church doctrine well enough or because it is so complicated they can't really explain it. (Some RC's and L's on this board I will admit seem to have some biblical Knowledge). Anyway, the point is that the message is simple. Jesus was a simple, humble man who was God. Either you accept what he did for you or you don't. Accept the work of the cross or reject it, that simple. No need for saving sacraments or other things that take away from the simple message. I beg of all of you to consider a simple carpentar and a simple Gospel!!!!

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
    #105 Briguy, Jan 28, 2002
  6. tulpje

    tulpje Guest

    Tuor, Children are capable of sin and are born into sin. If you believe otherwise, than you are calling our Lord a liar when he said. in John 3:5-6, "No one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water snd the spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh(meaning sin gives birth to sin)but the Spirit(which you receive in baptism)gives birth to the spirit(and therefore you are reborn children of God)
    And David a lair when he said in Psalm 51:5, "I was sinful at birth, sinful at the time my mother conceived me."

    Here is John 3:5-6 again without all of my comentary. Please read this agaain so that you understand that we are indeed born into sin and need the help of our merciful Father to be delivered from our sinful nature. it is the gift of God unto us.

    John 3:5-6 No-one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

    anotherwards, what happens if you die and you haven't received the Spirit and your baptism was a memorial to God?

    John 3:5-6
     
    #106 tulpje, Jan 28, 2002
  7. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    "" The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.''

    Perhaps being born of water means something other than what it aparently means.

    Nothing in the Bible says that we are doomed by actions of others. According to your beliefs, someone can be doomed for no other reason than being born to the wrong parents.

    This may be true, or it may not be true. I tend to believe this is not true for the simple fact that God says we are judged by our own hearts, not the hearts of your parents.

    I guess Jesus made himself a liar when he said that the theif at the cross was going to be in paradise? The theif was not baptized and died after Jesus' death.
     
    #107 Eladar, Jan 28, 2002
  8. Sir Ed

    Sir Ed New Member

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    Adam said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> [1Tim 2:15] Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> We are all saved if we continue in faith and love and holiness.

    Clint said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> That is the problem with this thread. We should be more concerned about this world and the treatment of our fellow man and spreading the Gospel than worrying about salvific acts. We all follow the practices that we feel are correct in the Eyes of God, but in the end, it is God alone that seperates the wheat from the chaff. The criminal on the cross is proof enough that no actions are salvific. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Wrong. The actions of Jesus on the cross and God working by sending the Holy Spirit to us in Baptism are salvific.

    Barnabas said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> No! Nothing saves us, not baptism, not anything else. Jesus saves us from our sins, period! Nothing we can do or could do will save us, except the shed blood of Jesus, the perfect Lamb of God, in Whom there was no guile. He can only save us. This is what the Bible teaches us, and this is what we Baptists believe. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Jesus does save. One of the ways He does it is through Baptism. BTW: Baptists don't believe that only Jesus can save. They believe you have to save yourself by making a "decision for Jesssuuusss."

    Adam said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> There really isn't much left to say: We believe what the Bible says about baptism in light of what Christ and the Apostles taught and practiced. And that is believer's baptism by immersion. Baptism is not a mean's of salvation. Faith in Jesus Christ is and that is the work soley of God by means of the Holy Spirit- apart of anything we try to do to save ourselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You believe in Baptism in light of what your preacher tells you. You ignore what the Apostle's taught and practiced. However, you are right that we can do nothing to save ourselves. How, very unBaptist of you.

    Glenn said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The reason a person is baptized is an afformation that they belong to Christ! It is an answer of a good conscious towards God! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Where does Scripture say that? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> It has no saving possibilities eternally speaking only the blood of Jesus Christ can do that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Water doesn't save, water and Word do. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Here's is a question for all what about those who were born before Jesus set the example. They were not Baptized so I guess they can never go to heaven? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> They were under the Old Covenant, not the New. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> If Baptizing is for eternal salvation then we better get busy and baptize babies as soon as they come forth from the womb or we are not doing our job. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Amen! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> One of our minister made this comment and worthy of much consideration... If a person isn't saved before they are baptized then they went in a dry devil and came out a wet one!... Think about that one! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sure, I've thought about it and there is not a Biblical basis for the heresy. Try not listening to a man. Listen to the Scripture and the Spirit.

    Tuor said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Neither are they capable of sin. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> We are all capable of sin. Our nature is sinful.

    Brian said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Anyway, the point is that the message is simple. Jesus was a simple, humble man who was God. Either you accept what he did for you or you don't. Accept the work of the cross or reject it, that simple. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Amen!

    Peace be with you.
     
    #108 Sir Ed, Jan 28, 2002
  9. Sir Ed

    Sir Ed New Member

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    Tuor asked: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I guess Jesus made himself a liar when he said that the theif at the cross was going to be in paradise? The theif was not baptized and died after Jesus' death. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I hope you are not serious. Jesus did not lie. Two things: First Jesus (being God) can make any decision He wants. [​IMG] Secondly, He had not yet died and risen. The New Covenant was not yet.
     
    #109 Sir Ed, Jan 28, 2002
  10. tulpje

    tulpje Guest

    you are not making any sense! We are talking about being BORN INTO SIN. The theif on the cross went into heaven under the old covenant and before the great commission. He believed in Jesus! The theif on the cross is irrelevant. He was under the old covenant. The great commission took place at the accension. "Go therefore and baptize all nations in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."
     
    #110 tulpje, Jan 28, 2002
  11. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    I thought the old covenant was replaced with the new at the cross. In any case, Jesus said what he did about water well before the cross. Notice Jesus said what He said about water wasn't in a future tense, it was in a present tense.

    In other words, even before the Cross the way to salvation was still the same. The water was needed both before and after the cross.

    Something to chew on.

    [ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: Tuor ]
     
    #111 Eladar, Jan 28, 2002
  12. tulpje

    tulpje Guest

    I am not sure whether or not Jesus actually baptized anyone during his ministry or not. Jesus never told his deciples to baptize anyone until the pentecost. That was the great commission. And it happened at his assension in Acts. That was when the church began. At the cross our sins were forgiven. The second covenant didn't begin until he accended. Am I right Godmetal and Sir Ed?
     
    #112 tulpje, Jan 28, 2002
  13. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    T. writes
    ""Go therefore and baptize all nations in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." "

    This is a gross mis-quote and shows the pre-occupation with baptism that T. and other of you have. Please let the Bible say what it says. We are to make disciples of all nations and then the word Baptism comes in to play. What is a disciple? A follower of Jesus!!!!

    In a simple message from a simple Savior,
    Brian

    [ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: The Briguy ]
     
    #113 Briguy, Jan 28, 2002
  14. tulpje

    tulpje Guest

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Briguy:
    T. writes
    ""Go therefore and baptize all nations in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." "

    This is a gross mis-quote and shows the pre-occupation with baptism that T. and other of you have. Please let the Bible say what it says. We are to make disciples of all nations and then the word Baptism comes in to play. What is a disciple? A follower of Jesus!!!!

    In a simple message from a simple Savior,
    Brian

    [ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: The Briguy ]    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yer RIGHT Briguy! a GROSS mis quote! for Jesus said in Matthew 28:19, "Go therefore and make DECIPLES of all nations batizing them in the name of the father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit. Thank you for Clearifying that [​IMG]
     
    #114 tulpje, Jan 28, 2002
  15. Sir Ed

    Sir Ed New Member

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    Brian, your misquote is just as bad as tulpj's.
     
    #115 Sir Ed, Jan 28, 2002
  16. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer Active Member
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    Sir Ed -

    I stand corrected. Christ dying on the cross was a salvific act. I should have said that no person's actions other than those of Christ's are salvific.

    However, the Holy Spirit is received upon regeneration as a helper and I contend that baptism by water, performed by a mortal man has no bearing on the grace that God may or may not show at the judgement.

    I didn't want to debate on this subject but wanted to recognize your clarification. Thank you.

    - Clint
     
    #116 Clint Kritzer, Jan 28, 2002
  17. Sir Ed

    Sir Ed New Member

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    Clint, you are correct concerning a Baptism just by water. Water is just water. It does nothing. Water with Word is entirely different matter though . . . .
     
    #117 Sir Ed, Jan 28, 2002
  18. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    Sir Ed, your sort of right I did mis-quote from what the KJV says. Since I accept the KJV over others I ask T and others to accept my apologie. The verses go as follows:

    "28:18: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
    28:19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    28:20: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    I humbly admit that these verses do not aid my position as much as I thought. In fact, depending how read they can support either position. I was wrong to say T was wrong without checking first. Again, I am sorry and hope T and others can forgive me.

    I believe their are versions that say disciple but not the version I always quote and trust.

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
    #118 Briguy, Jan 28, 2002
  19. tulpje

    tulpje Guest

    I accept your apology Briguy. This conversation has degenerated some. The point is that baptism is not something you do for God. It is something that God does for you. It is a Gift from God to us....a means of grace. you got it all wrong Also, Holy Communion is a means of grace also (that's my next thread)
     
    #119 tulpje, Jan 28, 2002
  20. Briguy

    Briguy <img src =/briguy.gif>

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    T, We just simply disagree. I will leave you one thought. You and Sir Ed have admitted exceptions to the "have to be baptized" thought (for example, the new convert who dies without being baptized, after responding to the Gospel). When you make this exception you open up a door of exceptions. If you take Baptism out of any salvation equation you have to view it as something less then salvation. You just can't have it both ways. When you wipe away the mush around what you both have argued it leaves something simuliar to what I have said all along, that is baptism is responsive for adults. ( I'll leave infants alone on this one) T, keep searching for yourself and don't quote Luther more then the Bible that just not a good thing to do.

    In Love and Truth,
    Brian
     
    #120 Briguy, Jan 28, 2002
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