Ephesians 1:4-5

The second paragraph in Ephesians 1 is in the context of a prayer. To lift a few verses from the entire context of a prayer is simply to misinterpret what Paul wrote and give words to it which he did not. Read the context of that passage. It has absolutely nothing to do with what Calvinists so often proclaim and scripture does not.

Hello Whatever ... are you implying that God doesn't know everyone already? Isn't it intuitively clear that if Paul was merely saying "God predestined everyone He knew," then he could just as easily have said, "God predestined everyone"?

All of Scripture is a single context. Who are we told will be made in the likeness of Christ? Those who believe. (e.g., John 1:12 -- note that believing preceeds the blessing) Paul isn't telling us a new thing in Ephesians 1 or Romans 8, and there's no reason to believe that it's out of context with the balance of Scripture.

Hi Gina ... Of course it matters. But knowing something doesn't mean causing it. If I'm standing 20 feet from an apple tree and see an apple fall, I know it's going to hit the ground. That doesn't mean I had to cause it to hit the ground. It just means I could see the result before it happened.

If, then, I say, "Those apples that hit the ground, I will make into apple sauce," my making apple sauce is not the reason the apple hit the ground.

God knows all past, present, and future, because He is not constrained by time, which is part of His creation. Therefore, He knows all that will happen because it is already before Him, plain to His view ... not because He directly caused all of it. (It is against God's nature to be responsible for sin, no matter how one wants to talk circles around that issue. Nor would He beg a person to come to Him if it were not possible for that person to do so. And it would make no sense for Him to plead with someone to believe if that person can only believe by God's sovereign will.)

God's foreknowledge is not the same as saying we don't have choice, but rather it is saying that our choices are known to God even before they are known to us.

1 Peter 3:9 tells us that God isn't willing that anyone should perish. Matthew Henry's Commentary (Calvinist) tells us that this refers only to the elect, and that He is waiting patiently for the elect to come to Him. If so, and if He is sovereign, and if He alone can cause someone to come to Him, then doesn't this tell us that He's waiting patiently for Himself to do something?

John 3:16 tells us that He so loved the world that He gave His only son, etc., placing the act of believing before the granting of eternal life. It doesn't say anything about God so loving a fraction of the world that He gave His son as a ransom for the predestined elect, who have no choice whatsoever. (cp. John 3:17)

In fact, there is not a single passage in the Bible that says that a person is born predestined for Hell and can't choose Heaven. Not one such verse. However, there are scores of verses that speak of God's longsuffering patience, of His pleading with people to turn to Him, of people harding their hearts against Him, and of others turning to Him. This is not a God who creates people merely for the purpose of condemning and destroying them "for His good pleasure."

Wildfire , I beg to differ with you .

Proverbs 16:4 -- The Lord works out everything for his own ends -- even the wicked for a day of disaster .

Romans 9:22 -- ... the objects of his wrath prepared for destruction .

Romans 11:7 -- What then ? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain , but the elect did . The others were hardened .

1 Peter 2:8 -- ... They stumble because they disobey the message -- which is also what they were destined for .

1 Peter 4:17 -- ...what will the outcome [ destiny ] be for those who do not obey the gospel of God ?

2 Peter 2:3 -- ... Their condemnation has long been hanging over them , and their destruction has not been sleeping .

2 Peter 2:12 --...They are like brute beasts ... born only to be caught and destroyed , and like beasts they too will perish .

2 Peter 3:7 -- By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire , being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men .

John 17:12 -- ... None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction ...


That's enough proof for now .

Or how about ...

2 Cor. 11:15 ---... Their end will be what their actions deserve .

1 Thessalonians 5:9 -- For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ . [ meaning that some are indeed appointed for wrath ]

Jude 4 -- For certain men who were marked out for condemnation ...

Jude 13 ... for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever .

Acts 1:25 -- ... Judas left to go where he belongs

2 Thessalonians 2:3 ... the man doomed to destruction .

Philippians 1:28 ... they will be destroed , but you will be saved -- and that by God .

God knows ABOUT everone, but he only KNOWS those WHOME he has set his affection on from eternity (foreknow).

He says to the lost "I NEVER knew YOU". He didn't say "I never knew ABOUT you".

He say to the elect: "...that the purpose of God according to ELECTION might stand..."Jacob have I LOVED..." "For WHOME he did foreknow, he did predestinat...", not "for WHAT he foreknew".

Originally posted by Wildfire:
Note that the predestination there mentioned is not an election to salvation, but rather a predestination to be conformed to His likeness.

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Only if you ignore the whole context. It continues:

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

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Foreknew->predestined->called->justified->glorified.

That's the whole connection from start to finish.

Originally posted by Wildfire:
Hello Whatever ... are you implying that God doesn't know everyone already? Isn't it intuitively clear that if Paul was merely saying "God predestined everyone He knew," then he could just as easily have said, "God predestined everyone"?

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That would be true if "foreknew" meant "knew their names, and what would happen to them". That is not what the word "proginosko" means, though. It means to know intimately. So there are those God knew intimately, and there are those God knew about. But those He knew intimately are a subset of those He knew about.

You can't get around this, because Jesus used the same word when He said "I never knew you" (ginosko). If foreknew meant what you WANT it to mean, then it would be impossible for Jesus never to know someone. But it is not impossible for Jesus never to have known someone intimately.

May I suggest to all to perform an ACCURATE exegesis of the passage BEFORE we arrive at conclusions.

For an good example I'd like to suggest:
http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj11e.pdf

Originally posted by John Ellwood Taylor:
May I suggest to all to perform an ACCURATE exegesis of the passage BEFORE we arrive at conclusions.

For an good example I'd like to suggest:
http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj11e.pdf

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Very interesting analysis, and thorough. Here's an important quote from it:

The context contains no indication of any preconditions related to election or predestination. The sealing of believers by the Holy Spirit has two prerequisites: hearing and believing, but since these are activities in human history, occurring at the point of conversion, they are not to be transferred into eternity past as conditions of election.

[...]

It is therefore apparent that God is dealing with humanity in its fallen condition, which means the objects of election are unbelievers, who will become believers on account of their election.

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I also like his dealing with the expression "in Christ", which harmonizes well with being foreknown intimately.

We've all heard it said: "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence".

Because of man's "nature" he likes to graze in satan's pasture, but when God calls, man is placed on top of the fence separating God's pasture and Satan's pasture, just as Satan offer Jesus all the kingdoms of this world, we have to make a decision which pasture will be the best for us.

If we only "SEE/WANT" the nature things of the world, we'll jump off the fence back in satan's pasture,

However if the "Spiritual" things are more important, like Jesus, we'll reject the natural for the spiritual, and get off the fence in God's pasture.

God's call puts everyone "ON THE FENCE", not willing that any should perish, but whether we land back in satan's pasture or God's pasture, is a "CHOICE" we make.

Like Jesus, Satan offer us the kingdoms of this world, but God offer us his kingdom,

De 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:

Me4Him: So Satan and God are equal candidates, and you get to cast the deciding vote?

And God's call puts everyone on the fence? Would that be the same call as the one in Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

??

Originally posted by J.D.:
Me4Him: So Satan and God are equal candidates, and you get to cast the deciding vote?

And God's call puts everyone on the fence? Would that be the same call as the one in Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

??

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Can you tell/show me what this was that was "predestined"??

To be saved/Lost.... What????

O.K. I tried. You didn't answer my question so I'm not going to answer yours.

Originally posted by J.D.:
O.K. I tried. You didn't answer my question so I'm not going to answer yours.

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I don't think you'll get an answer. However, let me add this question:

"All the Father gives me will come to me"

If you are given by the Father to Jesus, is it possible that you will decide not come to Jesus?

Originally posted by Me4Him:
We've all heard it said: "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence".

Because of man's "nature" he likes to graze in satan's pasture, but when God calls, man is placed on top of the fence separating God's pasture and Satan's pasture, just as Satan offer Jesus all the kingdoms of this world, we have to make a decision which pasture will be the best for us.

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Satan offering Jesus Christ the kingdoms of the world was an exercise in futility since the kingdoms of the world don't belong to Satan

Originally posted by Me4Him:
If we only "SEE/WANT" the nature things of the world, we'll jump off the fence back in satan's pasture,

However if the "Spiritual" things are more important, like Jesus, we'll reject the natural for the spiritual, and get off the fence in God's pasture.

God's call puts everyone "ON THE FENCE", not willing that any should perish, but whether we land back in satan's pasture or God's pasture, is a "CHOICE" we make.

Like Jesus, Satan offer us the kingdoms of this world, but God offer us his kingdom,

De 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:

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Have you never read the words of jesus Christ as recorded in the Gospel of John: And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. [John 5:40]

So how are we going to get off the mythical fence?

Originally posted by Me4Him:
We've all heard it said: "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence".

Because of man's "nature" he likes to graze in satan's pasture, but when God calls, man is placed on top of the fence separating God's pasture and Satan's pasture, just as Satan offer Jesus all the kingdoms of this world, we have to make a decision which pasture will be the best for us.

If we only "SEE/WANT" the nature things of the world, we'll jump off the fence back in satan's pasture,

However if the "Spiritual" things are more important, like Jesus, we'll reject the natural for the spiritual, and get off the fence in God's pasture.

God's call puts everyone "ON THE FENCE", not willing that any should perish, but whether we land back in satan's pasture or God's pasture, is a "CHOICE" we make.

Like Jesus, Satan offer us the kingdoms of this world, but God offer us his kingdom,

De 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:

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Now I understand why your user name starts with "Me" - because only one who is as good and wise as you are could choose God's pasture. Those who choose Satan's pasture are obviously missing an element of virtue that you possessed in order to make such a wise choice.

Originally posted by Wildfire:
Hello Whatever ... are you implying that God doesn't know everyone already? Isn't it intuitively clear that if Paul was merely saying "God predestined everyone He knew," then he could just as easily have said, "God predestined everyone"?

All of Scripture is a single context. Who are we told will be made in the likeness of Christ? Those who believe. (e.g., John 1:12 -- note that believing preceeds the blessing) Paul isn't telling us a new thing in Ephesians 1 or Romans 8, and there's no reason to believe that it's out of context with the balance of Scripture.

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Hi Wildfire,

I am not implying anything. I am only asking why you add to what Paul said. I think Paul meant what he said, and that we ought not "correct" it so that it "fits" with the rest of Scripture. I think it fits as is.

OldRegular wrote: Satan offering Jesus Christ the kingdoms of the world was an exercise in futility since the kingdoms of the world don't belong to Satan

Jesus never contradicted Satan on this point, and that is interesting. In Revelation 11:15, we read "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

In 1 John 5:19, we read, "We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one."

Originally posted by Helen:

In 1 John 5:19, we read, "We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one." [/QB]

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But, I thought that according to Me4Him, the whole world was on the fence, no longer under the control of Satan. If they are under the control of the evil one, how, pray tell, can they exercise their free wills to get out from under that control?

Originally posted by Wildfire:
[QB] If predestination and foreknowledge are the same thing, then Romans 8:29 actually means, "For whom He predestined, He also predestined," or, "For whom He foreknew, He also foreknew." Not much sense there. Clearly, foreknowledge and predestination are separate and distinct matters.

Note that the predestination there mentioned is not an election to salvation, but rather a predestination to be conformed to His likeness.

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You are making a classic mistake. You are confusing election with predestination. Election involves God choosing certain people. Predestination involves God determining the destiny of those He elected. Most likely, they are impossible to separate, but for theological discussions, they must be understood separately.

In Romans 8:29, foreknowledge is NOT a knowing of facts about people. The direct object of the verb "forknew" is "those." He foreknew those. It does not say He foreknew what they would do. It says He foreknew them.

The exact parallel of this verse is found in Romans 11:2 - God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. It is the exact same construction in the Greek. The only difference is the direct object - "His people" as compared with "those" in 8:29.

The point being made in Romans 11 is that even though Israel rejected the Messiah, He didn't cast them away because He foreknew them. How would this point relate to looking down in time to see who would believe in Him or not? Israel rejected Him! But He foreknew them, so He didn't cast them away. It involves a special relationship. In other words, He elected them.

This is the meaning in Romans 8:29 as well. Those whom He foreknew are those whom He elected.