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Ephesians 1:4-5

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Helen, Mar 17, 2006.

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  1. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    My sin, yes. My sin nature I was born with; it was not my fault. It was the condition I had, that God allowed, and that Adam was initially responsible for.

    (edit: my grandparents used to own a good section of Hope Ranch. I have lovely memories of visiting them there when I was growing up. Think early fifties.)
     
    #81 Helen, Mar 21, 2006
  2. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    If unbelief is predestined for us, then it is not our fault.
    </font>[/QUOTE]You are still confusing predestination and cause. Predestination does not cause anything. All of the things you mentioned have causes, and none of them were caused by predestination. We each cause our own unbelief.
     
    #82 whatever, Mar 21, 2006
  3. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist New Member

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    OK, Me4Him, I am real tired of you using the phrase "respect of persons" to say that God doesn't do certain things for some while not doing certain things for others. You are completely taking that phrase out of context. It is obvious that God did some things for Abraham that He did not do to anyone else.

    Deuteronomy 7:6-8 For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. 7 "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; 8 "but because the LORD loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

    Gee, God respected Israel over the other nations. Not for anything they had done, but because He set His love on them. And He didn't set His love on the other nations.

    SO, here are a few verses where the phrase "respect of persons" is used.

    Romans 2:8-11 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    God judges people based on their works. When you can properly interpret this passage, I'll listen to you "no respector of persons" statements.

    Ephesians 6:5-9 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; 6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; 7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: 8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. 9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

    Here, the respect is based on social status. God is not like that.

    Colossians 3:23-25 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; 24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

    Again, judgement based on works.

    1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

    One more time, judgement is based on works.

    NOTICE: None of these references has anything to do with election - why God chooses one for salvation and not another. They have to do with God not basing final judgment on social status or anything but our works. Which is what we would expect since we read from the rest of the Word that final judgement (not justification, mind you) is based on works.
     
    #83 Calvibaptist, Mar 21, 2006
  4. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Whatever, if faith/belief is a gift from God, then, logically, unbelief/lack of faith is the absence of that gift and therefore the condition of the natural state of man.

    No one can be held responsible for his natural state.
     
    #84 Helen, Mar 21, 2006
  5. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist New Member

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    And yet, you still have to deal with the results of all these things that are not your fault.
     
    #85 Calvibaptist, Mar 21, 2006
  6. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Why not? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?
     
    #86 whatever, Mar 21, 2006
  7. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    I fully agree with you, Calvi. You and I and all of us reasonably sentient adults are responsible for what we do with the conditions and circumstances we find ourselves in. THAT is where the choices in our lives lie.
     
    #87 Helen, Mar 21, 2006
  8. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    Helen, regarding your sin nature not being your fault - Adam was our representative, and of course he blew it. So now we are cursed. You say it was not your fault? Are you saying that you would have done better than Adam? Are you saying that God was unfair in making him our representative?
     
    #88 Andy T., Mar 21, 2006
  9. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Why not? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? </font>[/QUOTE]Why not? You have GOT to be kidding. Are you going to hold me responsible for being born female? Are you willing to take me to trial for being Caucasian?

    I am not responsible for the way I was born! Get real!

    And yes, God has every right to do what He will. And what the Bible has said is His will is that none should perish, but that obviously happens, so He has permitted us to choose our destiny in terms of our reactions to Him. THAT you and I and everyone else is responsible/accountable for.
     
    #89 Helen, Mar 21, 2006
  10. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Whether or not I would have done what Adam did has nothing to do with the matter. The fact was that I could do nothing to stop him or influence him, not having been born yet. Therefore I have no responsibility for what he did. I have, nevertheless, as with all of us, suffered the consequences of his decision.

    Adam was NOT our 'representative.' He was the first man. That is quite different.

    In the same way, my grandfather, whom I loved dearly, was not my representative either. He was a 32nd degree Mason and I know now that is a cult. Each of us is him or herself in the Lord's eyes. We do not represent one another. Christ is our one and only representative to the Father. Adam never was. There is no record of him ever making plea for any of us!
     
    #90 Helen, Mar 21, 2006
  11. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    It seems as if they can.
    Romans 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Does all mean all?
     
    #91 Gina B, Mar 21, 2006
  12. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Not kidding at all. The Bible plainly states that we have NO right to ask God "why have you made me like this?" If He chooses to make me for the purpose of showing His wrath against unrighteousness then He is perfectly just to do so and I can lodge no complaint. Your objection is invalid and unbiblical.
     
    #92 whatever, Mar 21, 2006
  13. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    I'm not asking God why He made me this way!

    But I am not responsible for the way I was born. I am responsible for what I do with it.

    Gina, you ask if "all means all". It seems to me the passage is talking about adults. Minus Chris and those like him who I don't think are adults in the eyes of the Lord or anyone else! Are you trying to say that when each of your beautiful daughters was born they had already sinned?

    If so, HOW?
     
    #93 Helen, Mar 21, 2006
  14. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    Helen, Adam is our representative as natural born sinners. And yes, Christ is our representative if we are redeemed. This is very clear in Rom. 5:12-21.

    If an infant is saved, he is saved through Christ's representation (sacrifice) alone, not because he is innocent.
     
    #94 Andy T., Mar 21, 2006
  15. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Please, what is an infant guilty OF? If put on trial, what has he or she done to be convicted?
     
    #95 Helen, Mar 21, 2006
  16. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Yes, you are responsible for having been born in sin. What you want to do is shift the blame to Adam, and ultimately back to God for allowing it, because when He made you you were Caucasian and female and you had a sin nature. This is what Paul disallows.

    "For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous."

    Who was the one man by whose disobedience you and I were made sinners? If you will not have Adam's guilt then you cannot have Christ's righteousness.

    It seems like we have been here before.
     
    #96 whatever, Mar 21, 2006
  17. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    He is guilty of being a sinner by nature. Rom. 5:12-21. Again, was God unfair to make Adam our representative?

    Helen, your argument is not with me. It is with Romans 3, 5, 9 and all of Scripture.
     
    #97 Andy T., Mar 21, 2006
  18. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Did Christ die for the sins of all except infants? That puts a new spin on limited atonement.
     
    #98 whatever, Mar 21, 2006
  19. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    That is absurd in the highest degree. NO ONE is guilty for being born the way they are born. Guilt has to do with something you are responsible for. Tell me, please, what sin has the newborn committed? The only possible way an infant can be guilty of something is if he or she has done something.

    Paul states in Romans 7 that sin was DEAD until the law came into his life. What law does a newborn know that he or she disobeyed and thereby bears guilt for?

    A representative speaks for other people. Adam spoke only for himself if you read Genesis 3. In fact, he blamed God! "This woman you gave me..."

    My argument is very much with you, as a representative of those who speak for Calvinism, by the way. IN the very passage you referred me to -- Romans 5:12-21, you will read the following: "But sin is not taken into account where there is no law." That means the person is not held accountable. Yes, death, which is the consequence, reigned. But death is not a punishment, it is a consequence.

    Read verse 14: "Nevertheless, death reigned form the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come."

    Adam was a pattern, not a representative.
     
    #99 Helen, Mar 21, 2006
  20. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Did Christ die for the sins of all except infants? That puts a new spin on limited atonement. </font>[/QUOTE]You know very well you have used this nonsense before and I have responded before.
    1. IF infants could sin, which they cannot, they are covered by Christ's sacrifice which was for all sin for all time.
    2. Jesus said the children are His.

    And, in your mocking, you did not answer the qeustion. Of what would you convict a newborn of doing? Or is it sufficient that you should simply judge him for BEING? And if being, in what way is he responsible for his being?
     
    #100 Helen, Mar 21, 2006
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