Grace goes against the grain

GH and Me2,

You compliment each other well lol! I personally get a bunch of jumble and sometimes I can work it out, other times I'm running it past Di or someone else (to get the blood pumping) exclaiming, "theres something in this verse, I just know it"! Di sometimes writes me a one liner that pulls it altogether for me. God, I love that dynamic in the body of Christ when it happens.At other times I just have to wait on it...Which I'm doing now, enjoying reading the posts right now verses posting. Some great things in this thread! Sitting back and chowing down

In Him Kimbo

 

I would dispute this. More often than not, His disciples would say, "Lord, this is a hard saying"; and then He would take them aside and explain it to them.

Our God is a consuming fire. I think it's interesting that this is being used to say that the lake of fire seen in the vision in Revelation is actually God Himself.

The three times that it's used (Deuteronomy 4:24, Deuteronomy 9:3, and Hebrews 12:29), it's referring to God destroying the wicked--not cleansing them and "reconciling" them to Him.

The word "reconcile" was used; many, many, many have died without being reconciled back to God. Are you saying that these are waiting to be raised again at some point, that they may yet be reconciled unto Him?

Or how otherwise do you explain those that die while still rejecting reconciliation with God?

 

quick note...I work nites & sleep days. sometimes I'm able to get on at work, but not usually. anyway if you notice I'm not on here for a lehgthy period it doesn't mean I'm gone, just tied up. Have a GREAT Day!!!

 

Hi Don,
Quick Question...Where Is Your Old Spirit ?

Forever In Death. For ANYONE Ever To Be With God They Will Have To Believe By Faith And Accept The Sustitute Life and Death That Jesus Lived While On Earth..

God Owns The Earth..Everything In It And Everyone.

2 possible senerios Exist
[1] All Men Saved..Being A Perfect God Saving His Creation Perfectly.
simply Saying..Everything God Does Its Perfect.... Creation and Redemption..No Mistakes
[2] Some Men Saved..Some Men Lost...Of Course Due To Mistake of Infinite God Letting ignorant Finite man Outwit Him and His Infinite "Perfect Plans"..(ie Free Willism)

...and of course Now We Have To Create An Opposite Eternal Existense For The Unsaved..
God Would Not Be All In All..Everyone would Not Be Treated Equally and Fairly.
and All The saved Would Be Asking For Eternity "Is God Love, If He Punishes infinitly for Eternity without The slightest Inclination of Mercy"?..
What did He Accomplish By Dying for Mankind, If Even One Would Be Lost..Was It A Perfect Plan Of Redemption ?

Reconciliation after death ? Simple Senerio....All Deaths, whether they be accidental , medically related, or premature...Too Many Stories where The Existense of an Intermediate State MUST Exist To Allow People the time to Comprehend The Lord and His Love....

The Bible Speaks Of Many Ages To Go After This One..This Existence Is In A State Of Death..
When we Die From This Existence..We Step Into Life..The Opposite of This Cursed Environment. Things Will Be Better Understood without the Existense and Power Of Sin To Cloud The Minds of People.
They Would Only Have To Accept What Had Already Happened By Faith to Fulfill The Requirements of Salvation!

Try Looking At The Character Of God The Father (Infinite Love)..and His Plan of Reconciliation and Fill In The Blanks Of What MUST Occur..We Can Guess All Day and Maybe Not Even Be Close to How It Will Occur...But God Is Love..Therefore Reconciliation Will Occur. For Many After This Life Is Over and The Next One Begins...

A Quick Addition..Gods Plans Included Jesus As High Priest and A Group of Mankind Called The Sons Of God, or Overcomers, or Ambassadors of Christ, or The Bride, or Christ Body, or The Church.

We Do Know That This Select Group Is Spirit Filled..Not Carnal..Fully Grown and Comprehending The Character of Christ...The High Priest
When God Said Pray For All Men..He Meant It..Living In Gods Glory and Allowing God To Bless His People Through You To Them.
We Are To Be The Visible Body Of Christ Before His People..All Of Them
This Plan Covers Many Ages To Come

P.S. GH..I Still Hear Them Bells.........

Me2

[ July 18, 2002, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

[2] Some Men Saved..Some Men Lost...Of Course Due To Mistake of Infinite God Letting ignorant Finite man Outwit Him and His Infinite "Perfect Plans"..(ie Free Willism)

[3] Some Men Saved..Some Men Lost..Of course, due to plan of Infinite God letting ignorant finite man mistakenly think he outwitted God and His infinite perfect plans....

Your theories and thought processes have not answered the parables and analogies that I presented that Jesus Himself gave us regarding the tares and the wheat.

But, since we're apparently not going to see eye to eye on this, I need to find something more productive to do....

 

Don,

Which precedes the giving of the laws, statutes and judgements God himself said were not good and they could not live by wherewith in saying Amen and Amen to all the Lord said and then bound themselves with an oath to a curse.

The curse of the LORD [is] in the house of the wicked. The law?

The way of the wicked [is] as darkness: they know not at what they stumble. the law?

His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins.

true again of the law, theres many more references when looking up the wicked, its a turning back or even shrinking back to the law, it's not of faith, it empowers sin, it makes sin utterly sinful right?

Unbelief is is reason to be tossed into the lake of fire, yet at the same time what if some did not believe? Does that nullify Gods faithfulness? Never, let God be true every man a liar... HEY did that just say "liar"?...well into the lake with you.

All kidding aside, The references that the lake of fire (Or second death/ which will not hurt overcomers) is compared with God not only because He fits the bill by being a consuming fire, but His Breath is as Brimstone (Holy spirit?) His breath as a stream of brimstone kindles... what exactly did Christ want to send? Fire?

Not only that, but because the scriptures themselves talk about death and hell and in one book its cast into the lake of fire, in another Gods making it void and HE is its destruction... HIM. I could ask, which one is true, I'm sure I might witness a dance with words but I'm very curious myself. Instead of holding one true and making excuses for the other to fit my present comprehension I see both true and look elsewhere for verification concerning both of these pictures.

Rev 14:10 Has the fire and brimstone present along with the Torment and we have THE LAMB THERE, He's not said to be doing the tormenting but there is torment in His presence.

Now that brings me to look at the man among the tombs who cut himself day and night (WOW! "Day and Night"... same words found once more in the lake of fire) What were his words when he saw Christ approaching him? Have you come to TORMENT me before the time? Did Jesus come to torment him? No, neither is it implied that the Lamb is doing the tormenting, but this man seems as if through the cutting up of himself with "stones" that he is tormenting himself. This could go on and on because the stones as I see it are the commands. The chains and fetters are mentioned used elsewhere in reference to the law... not mentioning that he is "naked" to boot. And lastly let me mention the sorrowful mind (The curse of the law) this man shows verses the "sound mind" in Christ. Without getting too far into this discussion, if you see the way I'm building the thought as it seems to emerge for me by comparing everything in the way I'm led to look into it, I feel as if I'm following the right lead as seen in the pictures I'm exploring which point in this direction. Just looking forward to more and when it comes I'll add to this hopefully but its only in part that I see these things so far.

So my thought doesn't run on only three verses declaring our God is a consuming fire but much more and on pondering about "death" and the "second death" being the "death of death" (as Me2 has helped me in showing that) No wonder that its precious to God concerning the death of his saints, they might just die IN THE LORD...

So in a nutshell theres where I'm basically coming from, I don't expect anyone to agree with me, you know me

In Him Kim

 

Don,

I realized we cross posted my reply was to your last post previous to the one above me.

In Him Kim

 

Star,

And what is that faithfulness? That Christ died on the cross, as the propitiation for our sins, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life?

Or something else?

You went on to expound about the "torment" part, but managed to completely bypass this man's final words: "Before the time."

And you also have yet to offer an explanation of Christ's words about the tares and the wheat.

 

"Before The Time"..Are Demons To Be Reconciled Is It Time..They Hold Positions Of Powers and principalities..Their Going To Have To Abdicate Their Authorities...Rebuild what was Damaged.. (imo)

 

Don

If we believe not is He not faithful? Has not God Himself concluded ALL in unbelief? Can He help anyone with unbelief?

And perish as In?????? For etenal life is to know God. Eternal death?

Don I didn't bipass the "before the time" I wrote it down, we've already been down this road before remember? Let me put it this way, is there anything to imply I know it all in my post? Absolutely not. Questions, questions questions, but just as in Peter saying He loved the lord, he did not agape Him as was the question in the pictures I hope to stay with what what is relevant. Apparently this guy had the wrong perspective concerning Jesus Christ because Christ set Him free and put Him in His right mind (clothes and all). Why do you bypass everything else shared and find what a demon possessed man had said worthy of more attention especially in light of the fact that he was NOT in His right mind stated right there within the picture? lol!

Concerning the wheat and the tares I did not know your question was directed to me. Within what I'm looking at concerning what I've been sharing I have yet to be led in that direction to look into that area concerning what I'm learning. I'm not the Holy Spirit and certainly not yours (Ofcourse you already know this) . Just because you whip a verse out and throw it into the picture you might think it belongs to, to me I haven't been led to find the connection to the wheat and tares to what I'm personally looking into... Hey, but that may change, I get an "inkling" to go in a certain direction and this is not one of them at this time.

Thats why I rather keep my questions and let them build as I continue to "seek" to understand them because I make no personal claims to understand them. You could say... How bout this verse? huh? huh? Or this? Huh? Ok yeah but how bout this verse? and this, and this, and this? Our questions and are seeking is different from each other, I have no position or stance that I believe I know something so I feel a bit free not to jam things together to reach a conclusion everyone else has already come to, I'm simply comparing, looking and waiting for understanding to come... it always does. His words are spirit and life not a homework assignment with a dealine for having the answers in outline form. Every word is perfect and it is refined, they are pondered and roasted and thought about until that light dawns. I enjoy that process itself so I'm not one you can get to give you off the cuff answers in that regard, I know its probrobly percieved as a weakness to those who think you must have all the answers so I'll have to be regarded as such

In Him Kim

 

Star...
Can't resist this, not a homework assignment huh?

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Looks like it's homework time!!!

 

Preacher,

lol! I can appreciate a divine sense of humor when I see one

Thank God its unto Him not men in the quest of comparing those spiritual truths with spiritual therein Being careful how I hear and hopefully understanding as I am able to in time.

Hey Preach, I can't resist either sometimes, I have em' moments myself

In Him Kim

 

The indication in the passage is that it was the demons talking to Christ through the man they had possessed. Your answer is ambiguous, as it implies that yes, the man was possessed by demons, but it was more like he was simply crazy out of his mind than actually possessed by demons.

Why do I emphasise all the words? Because I attempt to look at every jot and every tittle to place statements within their context. Who was fearful that Jesus was there to torment them: The man or the demons? This person, Jesus, was reknown for His acts of kindness; what did the man or the demons (depending on previous answer) know that caused him/them to immediately ask about torment?

If you don't believe the wheat and the tares are relevant to this conversation, then you need to go back and read the entire conversation. Christ stated that the wheat and the tares will grow up together; but that at the harvest, the wheat will be taken into the barn, but the tares will be burned.

Think about it.

[ July 21, 2002, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

Don,

I do indeed think on these things. I just don't give it a "mental minute" and come to conclusions at the drop of a dime. I wait on these things, I weigh them, ponder, roast them, carefully consider them, and wonder about them constantly. My conclusions (if I reach any) take a LONG TIME to reach being before being comfortable with what I believe. I consider these things according to the nature of God, the types (or shadows) used in scripture and the comparison between the spiritual words expressing the spiritual truths represented.

That which speaks of the lamb (Christ) I follow through looking at where Christ is pictured as such throughout scripture and carefully consider the perfect wording concerning the type used in presenting Him as such.
That which speaks of God as a "Consuming fire" I also look at. Considering the places where He is seen as such and the spiritual words expressing the spiritual truths within that certain picture.

It goes on and on. Theres plenty to think about, more to think about and understand then this life life has days. We grow in knowledge and understanding, its a "process" I fully enjoy which makes each day in Christ a wonderful day to learn something new concerning Him. Discovery, or the opening up of my mind in order to "understand" is a glorious process. I'm in no rush to come to a conclusion everyone else has asserted is true unless these things are fully searched out for myself, that is our Noble right and our Glory to do so. I would not cheat myself from this priviledge given to me.

Now... I might not have it jammed together in outline form with times and dates etc. concerning those things spoken of and it matters least to me what others say in regards to the things written. We both believe what is written in the same book but its in the "interpretation" we will differ upon depending on what parts either one compares with another.

I personally see every "word" as perfect. The admonishment is to "compare" these "spiritual words" with "spiritual" and find the spiritual truths they are expressing. I find that in carefully weighing what is said understanding comes but I make no pretenses about seeing clearly or else I would know greater things then even Paul claimed to know. If you reread my "train of thought" I have let go of alot of what I consider to be doctrines of men because personally I have way too many questions in my heart concerning what has been set forth and what is commonly accepted by others.

Now, I could say, "now everyone else believes this stuff and I just can't accept it in my heart" I therefore must be as one would consider an "appostate". Or I can wonder how many others feel the very same way having those same feelings concerning the interpretation given to them but are afraid of what others think (who would regard them as such) for taking a closer look and misunderstanding them on that basis.

The best theologians in the World got it wrong when Christ came in the flesh in His time. The multitudes had it "wrong" that is enough for me to say I trust the patern laid out in scripture in that regard. The question who do others say that I am, or their interpretations were always challenged by Christ. I challenge them in my own heart because they just don't agree with my Spirit keeps me looking and comparing elsewhere where I feel led to look accordig to how I feel the Spirit in me leads me. Wherever I feel led to look in making those comparisons I do whether they look relevant to the picture shown or not (in anothers estimation).

Now grant you, I'm looking into God as a consuming fire, I've posted elsewhere (not too long ago) about "Eternal" in regards to "fire" thinking of trying to recconcile if the word Eternal is used as a "number of days" or a very "attribute" of God. I'm considering every single word within the pictures I'm looking at. No monkey wrench can be thrown into that equation unless I have come to a conclusion, which I have not, these things must all be recconciled and I will deal with each thought which comes against the position I might hold as in its time. Right now I'm just letting whatever seems to unfold, unfold when I'm satisfied and the questions seem answered, I might say, "Lord, what about this"? Then I'm off looking into it again and waiting upon Him to show me. I do often ask, "Lord why do the theologians say this"? I'm always confused concerning what the theologians say. But thats the wonderful thing about the new covenant, "They shall all be taught of God". I trust that deep in my heart, and if my heart is unable to accept something, I know for one that God is able to make it clear to me (either true or false) but that I'm to listen to Him and if I truly believe that He is in me I will follow the beat of a different drummer as long as I hear the internal beat of His drums, even if someone else doesn't like the tune.

So in regards to the wheat and the tares and the burning thereof my question would be in what way? Whats it all about and I'd plunged into looking into everything in order to "understand". Not just mentally assert something from a verse void of understanding these things. A parrot or pharisee can repeat scripture, even I can provide you a verse according to where I perceive YOU as coming from. All I have to do is read what certain sects believe within Christianity and pull it up "copy paste" see what I'm saying? Whereas I have nothing concrete except that I know Christ and Him crucified and desire to know Him and understand what is written concerning Him.

How I feel led to read the scriptures is how I read them, I'm trusting my inner leading where to go in the comparisons I see and your led to see them in your way. I'm completely comfortable in that.

In Him Kim

 

O. K., I've been pondering(thats hillbilly for meditating) on what I've been reading & re-reading about the grace of God, & how most on this particular thread hold to a view of God chooses who He saves & who He doesn't. I gather that by now you know I believe in the free will of man to choose. So I have a what if for yuns'

What if you all are right,we have no say so in the matter of salvation. Then how do we witness this to people. A person is told that Jesus died for their sins but they can have no part in their salvation, that it's strictly up to God. They can call on the name of Jesus, as the scripture clearly teaches, but that doesn't mean they will be saved. They can believe, again as the Word says, but they can still go to hell if God decides not to save them. Or some might think that they have a 50/50 shot so eat drink & be merry, God may choose to save us anyway.
Actually...if you all are right then I'm not saved because I came under conviction of the Holy Ghost, Saw my need for a saviour & called out for mercy & forgivness through the Lord Jesus Christ.
Neither is his Spirit now abiding in me, leading me into all truth as His Word states, & again I'm accursed of God for preaching a false gospel( which He call me to preach).
But...If I'm right(& others) then the ones that are teaching no choice,...no hell...no repentance..just God period, deciding all, for all
& we have no responsibility for our actions, are preaching a false gospel.
Please read this in the Spirit given, I'm not trying to be mean, I'm really concerned because I know we will all face a judgement of one type or another at the end . I will be resposible for those I didn't warn, either of a need for a Saviour...or of a need to correct a wrong belief.

Awaiting the possible onslaught...

 

from Star: "Whereas I have nothing concrete except that I know Christ and Him crucified and desire to know Him and understand what is written concerning Him."

Which is an admirable desire.

Yet I'm reminded of what an old wise man once told me: "If you don't stand on something, you'll fall for anything."

 

Hello Preacher,

Have You Noticed The Similarities of the Things That Are Agreed On. Just Where Do The Differences Exist ?.

This Thread Is Mainly about Grace...of An Infinite God.
...of A God Who's Character is Infinite Love.

What Are The Differences.....

Satan Created Evil...Not Fallen Creation
No One Can Be Cursed....Jesus Payed For It At The Cross
No One Is To Punishment...Punishment Paid For By Jesus
Whatever Place of Punishment Exists..Jesus Nullified Its Reason of Existence..

or Do We Dare Ask.....

Is God Infinite Grace?
Is God Infinite Love ?
Is God Infinite Mercy ?
Is God Infinite Forgiveness ?

Its Pretty Easy To See That If You Dont Give God His Rightful Power and Soveriegnty that you set yourself up to be seen by others for what you Truely believe.

Unlike Calvinists Believe..God Doesnt Have Two Wills For Mankind. All Receive Equal Judgement.

Free Will Has To Have Limits.God Doesnt Create and Give Authority and Responsibility To Mankind without Mankinds Inability of Being Responsible.

Do Ya Ever Ponder The Question ..If Theres 3 Persons In Heaven. It Takes 2 or 3 to Agree To Will Anything Into Being..and Creation and Redemption were Ideas of God...and The Decisions were made in Heaven Before The Creation of The Earth. Dont you Think It was Already Settled Before God Made Man On Who Would Be Saved? and Why God Would Ask Us To Pray For All Mankind..Or God Would Say That Jesus Died for The Worlds Sins...or That The Fathers Will That All Men Be Saved......Makes Ya Wonder...

Me2