Where does it say we go to heaven???

reserved in heaven for you - 1peter 1:4

it's reserved there, but He will bring it with Him when He returns again.

We aren't going there to get it; He is bringing it down here.


Hi, dianetavegia.


Paul says his crown of righteousness is "laid up" ---

In 2Timothy 4:6-8 Paul wrote: "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."


Paul does not receive his reward immediately at death. But there is laid up a crown of righteousness which the Lord shall give him at that day. What day? At Christ's appearing ---- His second coming.

In Isaiah 40:10 we notice this same day mentioned: "Behold, the Lord God will come….behold, his reward is with him…." See also Revelation 22: 12.

 

Don't use pamphlets brother, rather use the Word's of Jesus.

One is sufficient, (John 14:1-6)

"I go to prepare a place for you, and if I go I will come again to receive you unto myself that where I am you may be also"

The book of Hebrews tells us where Jesus is, He is seated at the right hand of the Father.

You can try to say this is not heaven, and you know what I really don't care if you call it Pittsburgh. Whereever Jesus is is heaven, and that is our eternal dwelling place. The promise of that has nothing to do with the lies of Satan.

Now I am still waiting for your biblical references for your statements.

Bro Tony

 

Hi Bro Tony & all,

The Kingdom, the New Jerusalem, will all be brought down here to be where Jesus/God is.


Our citizenship is IN HEAVEN -- Philippians 3:20. In Hebrews 11, it says of Abraham, Abel, Enoch, and Noah that they were pilgrims and searched for a city and a country.

"But now they desire a better country, that is, a HEAVENLY: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he has prepared for them a city." --Hebrew 11:16.

Perhaps this is a reference to God Himself eventually dwelling on the Earth with mankind (Rev 21:3) and where ever God is, is Heaven. The new Jerusalem will come down from Heaven. Is this the city talked about in Heb. 11:16? God eventually dwells with mankind on this Earth; Earth becomes Heaven.

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
"And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Revelation 21:1-3).

Can our mind grasp it? Heaven is where God is! It is the place of His throne! Our Bible plainly says that GOD THE FATHER will bring HIS THRONE, His heavenly city "the New Jerusalem" down to this Earth after Christ has completed His work of salvation.

 

Hi wopik,

I substantially agree with your last post, but there is just one 'small' point you have overlooked. 2 Peter implies that the present heaven and earth will be destrpyed by fire.

2 Peter 3:7 "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

2 Peter 3:12 "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

The book of Revelation confirms this for us. I'm not sure whether New Jerusalem comes down onto the New Earth, or whether New Jerusalem actually is the New Earth but, either way, this present heaven and earth will be destroyed before New Jerusalem is provided.

This seems to happen right after Christ's victory over the Satanic attack at the end of the 1000 year reign (Rev 20:1-10), then we are told in Rev 20:11,

Revelation 20:11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the [present] earth and the heaven fled away"

The words in the square brackets are mine.

Revelation 21:1-2 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

PlainSense

 

In Rev 20 the wicked are raised after the 1000 years - they surround the New Jerusalem and are then burned by fire.

After that revelation - John expands on the point further in chapter 20 telling us about the books of record and the lake of fire.

In Rev 21 - 2nd half the focus is no longer on the wicked. There we just see the New Jerusalem described - as it comes down "again" after the destruction of the earth by fire and after the new earth is created.

The city came down once - at the destruction of the wicked - and comes down again just after the New Earth is re-made.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hi Bob,

You have made certain assertions here, but you haven't provided any specific scripture references to show these things.

In the scripture below, all emphasis is mine, as is everyting in square brackets.

Revelation 20:1-3,
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that [i.e the thousand years] he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:4-5 specifically says:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they [no raised wicked here] lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The ones who surround the city are those who Satan deceives (Rev 20:8, quoted below) when he is released after the 1000 years: see scripture following this paragraph (this city is the "beloved city" - the existing Jerusalem - I don't recall the Bible saying that New Jerusalem will come down more than once - where are the specific scripture references to all this upping and downing of New Jerusalem?)

Revelation 20:7-9,
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea [there is no sea on the new earth, but this is a moot point because, you could, I suppose, say that this is an indicator using a description we are currently used to, but it implies that the earth being talked about here is this present one].
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Sorry Bob, but I can't see your version of events in Scripture.

Yours in Christ,
PlainSense

 

Hi Bob,

You have made certain assertions here, but you haven't provided any specific scripture references to show these things.

In the scripture below, all emphasis is mine, as is everyting in square brackets.

Revelation 20:1-3,
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that [i.e the thousand years] he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:4-5 specifically says:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they [no raised wicked here] lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The ones who surround the city are those who Satan deceives (Rev 20:8, quoted below) when he is released after the 1000 years: see scripture following this paragraph (this city is the "beloved city" - the existing Jerusalem - I don't recall the Bible saying that New Jerusalem will come down more than once - where are the specific scripture references to all this upping and downing of New Jerusalem?)

Revelation 20:7-9,
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea [there is no sea on the new earth, but this is a moot point because, you could, I suppose, say that this is an indicator using a description we are currently used to, but it implies that the earth being talked about here is this present one].
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Sorry Bob, but I can't see your version of events in Scripture.

Yours in Christ,
PlainSense

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to post that twice, I was having trouble with my Internet connection.

 

Bob,

Having just re-read Revelation chapter 21 again, I think I can see why you say that New Jerusalem comes down twice, since John is described twice as seeing it come down (Rev 21:2 and 21:10). I believe this is actually describing the same event. If I can give an analogy, Genesis describes the creation twice - once in Genesis chapter one, and again in chapter two - but that doesn't mean that the creation happened twice. This "twice usage" is quite common in oriental writing (there is a name for this, but I can't think of it at the moment - perhaps someone out there can jog my memory). Another example is in Genesis 12:5 "and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came." They only travelled to Canaan once here, but it is said twice. There is, as far as I am aware, no reference to New Jerusalem being "taken up" so that it can come down a second time.

I also forgot, in my last post, to give the reference for there being no sea on the new earth. It is, of course, Rev 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

(Please forgive me if my posts have an abrasive style. They are not meant to be abrasive. I think I just have a naturally forthright (for which read 'abrasive' if you want to) way of writing. We are all striving for the truth here. I am not trying to impose "my view" upon you. I am much more interested in finding the true position, even if that means modifying my own views.)

Yours in Christ,
PlainSense

 

Jesus to a thief crucified near Him: "Today you will be with me in paradise", John 23:43.

Yes, an unbaptized, unchurched, criminal went to "heaven" that day--My God, how Great Thou Art. "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me..."

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Paradise isnt heaven , it was once a part of abrahams bosom - the place where where the righteous before God waited to be with God , it was one of the 2 compartments of sheol - its the place where Christ went and opened , freeing the souls "in prison when he went into the belly of the earth (the sign of jonah ) this place was done away with , now we go to heaven when we die if we are in Christ - "absent from the body - present with the Lord (who is on the right hand of the Father).

 

When spoken of separately, the righteous dead are said to enter a blessed state at death termed Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16:22) or Paradise (Luke 23:43; Paul and John place it in heaven, II Cor. 12:2-4; Rev. 2:7). Paul, after his own near brush with death (II Cor. 1:8-11), describes this as being with Christ and thus better than life (Phil. 1:23; II Cor. 5:8). Death has no power to separate Christians from God (Rom. 8:38-39); in fact, it unites them.

The devil in no way controls the place of the dead. Jesus has the key (Rev. 1:18), and it is distributed only to his messengers (Rev. 9:1; 20:1). Jesus himself upon his death descended to the place of the dead (Eph. 4:9; the rabbis used "the lowest earth" to refer to Sheol/Gehenna/Hades), and he preached there to imprisoned spirits, probably meaning the fallen angels of Noah's time (I Pet. 3:18-20; cf. Gen. 6:1-4). His preaching was surely an annunciation of victory. Thus for the Christian death, while sad, has lost its fearful aspect. Their leader has entered the stronghold of Hades and has reappeared victorious in resurrection. Whether thought of in terms of Paradise and Abraham's Bosom or in terms of the heavenly Jerusalem (Heb. 12:22), being under the heavenly altar (Rev. 6:9), or standing before God's throne (Rev. 7:9; 14:3), the abode of the righteous dead is one of union with Christ. P. H. DAVIDS

So much for pagananism , it all comes from the bible itself

 

Dead for three days--

Are we saying that Jesus' Spirit stayed locked in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb for three days and nights?

Death=separation; which is exactly what happened when Jesus died on the tree--"it is finished", He gave up His spirit. "That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit."

Where did Jesus' spirit go? He told the thief: "TODAY you will be with me in paradise".

He did not say" in several days".

Am I missing something? All scripture must harmonize. The doctrines of men seldom do.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Sounds like we are looking at "Watchtower" doctrine.

Let us go back to: death is separation.

What separates from what?

Selah,

Bro. James