Why not use grapejuice?

Thanks Charles.

I agree except for the statment about there being no reason to use an alcoholic beverage today. Wine has been shown to reduce heart disease.

If we ate like they did in the Bible times and drank wine, we would be healthier people.

If purity were the only reason why people drank wine in the Bible days, Jesus could have turned water into "pure water" at the wedding feast.

It is remarkable that the first recorded miracle of Jesus was in celebration of life and marriage. He turned water into wine!

Maybe we all need to enjoy life a little bit more!

 

DHK,

Come on! They made juice by stomping on it with their bare feet! At least in the Old Testament times.

Jesus was a Jew. He drank wine. Get over it.

 

Do some research on how they make grape juice/wine today. There are places in Europe (Italy), where they still stomp on the grapes with their bare feet. So what's the big deal about that? Just make sure your feet are clean.
DHK

 

Call it oinos or yayin but it's still wine.

I know from our past discussions DHK that you value personal holiness. Neither you nor I (I assume) would drink anything alcoholic (except maybe cough medicine ) but that doesn't mean you can project that backwards. Jesus drank wine as did everyone back then.

Again if the ultraconservatives can spin the bible and say that all of the "wine" was really grape juice then what can keep the liberal from spinning scripture the other way.

Scripture says what it says - whether or not that fits our man-made doctrinal schemes.

 

oinos or yayin means either fermented or unfermented wine, meaning grape juice or fermented grape juice. Any lexicon will bear this out. Just because Christians are naive enough to think that wine always has to have the meaning of being fermented doesn't make it so. They need to do some study on the word.
DHK

 

I'm fasting today, otherwise I would get a little wine right now!

 

So did Jesus turn water into grape juice?

 

Yes he did. He made "new wine," indicating grape juice. He would never make anything that had been corrupted. Proverbs says: "look not upon the wine when it turns itself aright." That describes the fermenting process, which is comparable to yeast. Yeast causes fermentation, even in grapejuice. Here is something that Jesus said: "Beware of the leaven (yeast) of the Pharisees. He ate the Lord's Supper or the Last Supper with unleavened Bread, and obviously with unleavened juice. He would not have created a corrupted drink. He created something that was pure, undefiled, new--grape juice.
DHK

 

Matthew 11-19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.

Winebibber:Strongs Conc Greek 3630. oinopothv oinopotes, oy-nop-ot'-ace
Search for 3630 in KJV

from 3631 and a derivative of the alternate of 4095; a tippler:--winebibber.


See Greek 3631 (oinos)
See Greek 4095 (pino)

Looks like Jesus drank the real thing to me. Otherwise, why would they call him a winebibber if He was merely drinking grape juice.

But I do think that we need to use juice in comunion because one sip of any alcohol can be a temptation to a recovering alcoholic. And we're not supposed to cause our brothers to stumble.


(waiting for the sledge hammer to hit)

Peace,

Tam

 

"But I do think that we need to use juice in comunion "
"
Nowadays this is actually an option, not to long ago unfermented grape juice simply wasn't available throughout much of the year.

 

Ps104_33
You are reading stuff into the text that isn't there.
Come to think of it during the time of year Pesach takes place grapes easily squeezed into juice must have been very hard to come by.

 

So we're back to Jesus turning water in grape juice!

And we wonder why the world of unbelievers laughs at us.

 

Rather the world would laugh at us because if it were the opposite (wine), Jesus would be promoting drunkeness, or at least abetting it.
DHK

 

"And we wonder why the world of unbelievers laughs at us."

My sentiments exactly Paul. I wasn't going to say that - but yes they do!!!

DHK, let me ask you this. And I am not poking fun at you.

What does the Bible say Jesus did with the water at the wedding? What is the plain sense here?
We know that near eastern people made and drank wine. Both the NT and OT speak of wine's ability to intoxicate (wine a mocker, might to drink wine, not given to wine etc) and thus acknowledge that they did drink wine. Why would Paul tell Timothy that a pastor should not be overly fond of grape juice? (I love Welch's!!)

The plain sense is wine. WHY (in all seriousness) do you insist otherwise?

Can you honestly say that your disdain for alcoholic beverages has not forced your interpretation?

 

John 2-9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Do you have any idea DHK, why they "usually" saved the worst wine till last? They served the good stuff till everybody was pretty well drunk, and then gave them the cheap stuff, cause after a person is drunk, everything tastes good!!

So Jesus turned the water into fermented wine not grape juice.

Peace,

Tam

 

That's a given. They do today also. It's not rocket science (an overused cliche). Do we really have to assume that the people of Jesus time were people that lived in caves (according to the dictates of evolultion), carried a big club over their shoulder, beat their wives with it when they didn't submit, sat around a fire at the entrance of their cave to keep warm, and hunted wild animals with spears to keep alive? Is that the society that you picture? Has evolution so thwarted your minds that you don't believe the people of the first century had the intelligence to preserve grape juice??

Rocket science again?? Where are you getting such profound statements from. I am sorry, I can't resist the sarcasm. My children (when they were 4) knew that wine had the ability to intoxicate. They also knew at that age that Noah got drunk. No one disputes these facts. Why are you bringing them up??
What you need to acknowledge for yourself is that words have more than one meaning.
EXAMPLES:
1. church: in the Bible means assembly, but otherwise could refer to building, denomination, organization, universal body, etc.
2. baptism: in the Bible means immersion, but otherwise means sacrament by sprinkling or pouring, means of grace to enter church or church membership, etc.
3. sheol: in the Bible it is translated Hell: but it has the meaning of: place of the departed dead, or sometimes grave.

Paul told Timothy to drink a little grape juice for thy stomach's sake because grape juice is one of the best anti-dotes for dyssentery, one of the most common stomach ailments of that time. It comes from contaminated water. In those nations instead of drinking water it was safer to drink juice.

I just explained that. I am the one that stands innocent of that accusation. You seem to want to make these words mean fermented wine all the time.

I have given you plenty of reasons why, none of which have been addressed, all of which have been conveniently avoiced.
1. The issue of being a stumbling block to others. He would not have created wine for those who would drink much at a wedding causing drunkeness.
2. He would not create wine, a substance that has the symbolic meaning of corruption. It comes through the process of fermentation. Grape juice starts to ferment from yeast or leaven--that which the Bible condemns. It is symbolic of sin.
3. He would never use it in the Lord's Supper or Last Supper because it is made of yeast and symbolizes corruption. His body was not left to corruption. The very fact that unleavened bread is used is proof that grape juice would be used. They are both unleavened. To do otherwise would be to have an element that would symbolize the decay and corruption of the Lord Jesus Christ--akin to blashpemy. The body and blood of Christ saw no corruption.

Absolutely. I have done my homework. Have you done yours? I have read books like "Bible wines and the laws of fermentation." I have at least three different books in my library that deal specifically with this subject, not including the different commentaries and encyclopedias.
DHK

 

Fermentation--

A natural process--alcohol is not a leaven.

Bro. James

 

Yeast is leaven.

FERMENTATION

 

PROCESS OF FERMENTATION