Why not use grapejuice?

So if you know of the nature of leaven and its symbolic representation, why do you believe that Jesus would advocate using it in the Last Supper, or that we should use it in the Lord's Supper? Does this make sense?

 

Hi seth, how's everything?

DHK, you said:I thought you would understand my sarcasm first time around.

Then the FIRST comment was:
Drunk on wine or a spoonfull of honey?

I Don't know why, but that is really really really funny to me, and I have not stopped laughing since I read it!!!

ROFLOL!!

I have no way of expressing HOW funny I think it is!!

Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

Mat 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake [it] NOT to you CONCERNING BREAD, that ye should beware of the LEAVEN of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?


Not to beware of leaven bread as it shows here, but seems to indicate your favorite allegories because they needed to understand what he was REALLY talking about here...

Mat 16:12 THEN UNDERSTOOD THEY how that HE BADE THEM (((NOT)) TO BEWARE OF (((LEAVEN BREAD))) BUT OF THE DOCTRINE of the PHARISEES and of the Sadducees.

Luke 12:1 Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, WHICH IS HYPOCRICY.
Mat 16:6 Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Mark 8:15 beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and [of] the leaven of Herod.

1Corinth 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the UNLEAVENED BREAD of SINCERITY AND TRUTH.

1Corinth 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

1Cronth 10:16-17For WE [being] many are ONE BREAD, [and] ONE BODY: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

Hi Tam, everythings great and you?

God bless ya

Seth3

 

I love your post Seth. And if I can ever stop laughing, I will be fine.



God Bless,

tam

 

I get the "giggles" all the time, the best ones are the ones that you cant get a grip on lol!

Enjoy yourself

God bless

Seth3

 

These are some of the relevant verses you quoted.

LORD'S SUPPER. The Lord's Supper is a memorial meal initiated by the Lord Jesus Christ on the eve of His passion, symbolizing His death and blood atonement for sin (Mt. 26:26-28; Mk. 14:22-24; Lk. 22:19-21; Jn. 13). The Apostle Paul plainly tells us that the Lords's Supper is a memorial ("this do in remembrance of me"--Lk. 22:19; 1 Co. 11:24,25) and a picture ("ye do shew"--1 Co. 11:26). The Lord's Supper is to be practiced in the church (1 Co. 11:18,20,22,33,34). Each church, as the body of Christ (1 Co. 12:27), is to observe the Lord's Supper after the Scriptural order. The church is responsible to oversee every aspect of the work of God to maintain doctrinal and moral purity (1 Co. 5:11-13; 2 Th. 3:6; Tit. 1:9-13; 3:10,11). We, therefore, do believe the church has both the authority and the responsibility to restrict the Lord's Table. Those who observe the Lord's Supper privately apart from the church are ignoring the Bible pattern.

The Seven-fold benefits of the Lord's Supper: (1) In 1 Co. 11:28 there is Examination. `But let a man examine himself.' (2) In that frame of heart we then are to `eat.' That is Participation. (3) Thus the supper becomes a Proclamation of the value of that wondrous death for poor sinners (1 Co. 11:26). (4) The feast is to have Continuation. But how often? [The Bible does not say how often; it simply says "as often as ye eat"--1 Co. 11:26.] (5) Anticipation is a hall-mark of the supper. `Till He come' are words that remind us that the supper is not only retrospective, but prospective. (6) Of course it is primarily a supper for Recollection of the Lord in His suffering and death for our sins. Such continual remembrance ought to stir the heart in love to the One who died for us. (7) A proper preparation of heart beforehand, and a right attitude at the supper will lead to Adoration. `In remembrance of Me,' said the Lord. The word translated `worship' in the N.T. means `to kiss towards.' It bespeaks an attitude of love, of obedience, of allegiance, of adoration (The Church of God: A Symposium).

Requirements for taking the Lord's Supper: (1) The individual must be a born again Christian (1 Co. 10:16-17). (2) The individual must be a baptized member of the church (Ac. 2:41-42; 1 Co. 5:11; 11:20,33-34). (3) The individual must be in fellowship with the Lord (1 Co. 11:27-31). This involves striving to live in obedience to the Bible and carefully confessing one's sins (Jn. 8:31-32; 1 Jn. 1:5-10).

Restricted Communion: Some object to placing restrictions on the Lord's Supper, saying we have no right to restrict the Lord's table. But the Bible teaches differently. Following are ways in which the Bible gives clear restrictions in this ordinance:

1. Restricted as to place - in the church (1 Co. 11:18).

2. Restricted as to motive - the social idea forbidden (1 Co. 11:21-22).

3. Restricted as to purpose - to discern the Lord's body (1 Co. 11:29).

4. Restricted to those who are baptized (Mt. 28:18-20).

5. Restricted to church members (Acts 2:41-42).

6. Restricted to those who are orderly (2 Th. 3:6).

7. Restricted to those who live correct lives (1 Co. 5:11).

8. Restricted to those who are judged by the church and found worthy (1 Co. 5:12-13).

9. Restricted to those of the same faith (He. 13:8-10).

10. Restricted as to the elements used - bread and fruit of the vine (Mt. 26:26; Lk. 22:19-20).

11. Restricted as to design--to remember the Lord (Lk. 22:19).

12. Restricted to a united church (1 Co. 11:16-20).

13. On top of all these, the individual must undergo a self-examination. Instead of the self-examination being the only requirement, it is in addition to all of the other restrictions (1 Co. 11:28).

CLOSED COMMUNION
1. The Communion is taken as a church body (1 Co. 12:27). The Lords Supper is a church function ("when ye come together" -- 1 Co. 11:20,33,34). Each church is a body and takes its own Supper.

2. The Communion is under the churchs discipline (1 Co 5:9,13). It is the churchs responsibility to exercise discipline over its members. This is impossible unless serious church functions and business is limited to members of that body.

3. The church is to be unified (1 Co. 1:10; Ph. 2:2). The unity required by Gods Word is impossible except in a sound New Testament assembly among members committed to and yielded to that churchs teaching authority. If church business (including the Lords Supper) is not controlled so that members only participate, it would be impossible for the church to fulfill the command for oneness of mind.

The cup of the Lord's Supper contained the grape juice which symbolized Christ's shed blood (Lk. 22:17-20; 1 Co. 11:25-27)
file:///C:/FundamentalBaptistLibrary2000/WWW/ency/index.html

 

The question was, the "the bread" I hope I answered that for you as the scriptures define it.

God bless

Seth3

 

Even if that were the case, that is very different to not drinking alcohol at all.

 

Undiscovered Country,

Simply stay with scriptures on it, concerning Wine, getting drunk and what it exhorts on that. What goes into the mouth verses what comes out of it. What Jesus did concerning Wine. And if this is unclean or wrong for you, you should refrain from it. People think differently on these things (obviously we can all see that) But blessed is the man who condemns not himself for the things He approves of. But if this is a stumbling factor for a brother, then abstain from it. The weak (in their concience may indeed stumble at a stronger in faith brothers liberality. The Stronger is not acting in love if the weaker brothers conscience is destroyed by what another partakes of. Each one must be convinced in his own mind.

But that ofcourse is my thought on it there are others that see differently as you will behold the number that follow stating their thoughts (always happens).

God Bless

Seth3

 

Leaven and bread go together.

No where does the Bible speak of leaven and wine.

 

What about the color of the fruit of the vine?

There is every shade of purple, red, pink, yellow and almost clear.

At what point does the question become moot?

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Leaven and bread do not go together, necessarily. Check your Bible as to how the Passover was celebrated. Half the world eats unleavened bread, rather than leavened bread (example: India eats roti with their curry). Leaven is symbolic of corruption, false doctrine, and sin. It is only in our western nations that we have become so accustomed to using leaven in bread. Many peoples still do not. The Passover was celebrated with unleavened bread as was the Last Supper. With it they had unleavened wine or grape juice, a symbol of purity not of corruption.
DHK

[ December 05, 2004, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

What Jesus was showing is that HE is the PASSOVER LAMB. This meant that in Him one would PASSOVER from their already present situation (under the the law) Ministry of death and condemnation into Life and Spirit. From Death unto life.

The cup He said was His blood (of the New covenant) poured out for them. In the OT if you look, "the blood" is the LIFE of the creature, the Blood was the Life of Christ. This also is referenced as drinking from the Rock in Hebrews (which was Christ) the SPIRITUAL DRINK. We are all given one Spirit to drink. Wine is really symbolic here. We eat the bread of life (which comes down from heaven) and drink the Spiritual drink the blood and life of Christ when we share a table together, as a spiritual feast among us.

The Kingdom of God is not a matter of "eating or drinking" and the communion is the common union of the saints in christ sharing their spiritual blessings in Christ in the building up (not the tearing down) of the saints.

Celebrating the passover without leaven is celebrating it without hypocricy because WE are the bread and body of Christ and there exists a possibility that hypocricy can creep in where it leavens the whole lump. The Bread He doesnt want leavened is US not "bakery bread" this would contradict Jesus who says nothing you put in your mouth defiles a man but what comes out of the mouth.

So He was not talking about Bread, but the Bread of the "Body" clarifying to His disciples it has nothing to do with bakery type bread (As Jesus who IS the Truth defines). Jesus declared what it is God was really pointing toward in Christ and how we are to "listen to Him" who tells us the truth of these things.

But thats how I see it

God Bless

Seth3

Gettng rid of leaven is a term borrowed from old and shown in light of what Christ said, and defined by Paul as malice and or hypocricy.

But if you take it literally and can't get that stay where you are in your understanding with it until it changes.

I actually agree with DHK on one point but come out differently on it. Hypocricy is the leaven of corruption in the bread ( as I see it as being in the Body of Christ rather then supermarket goods).