Salvation from c200AD to 1517?

Matt Black,

The truth of justification by faith alone is thundered from the scriptures. If I tried to post them all I would lose my job and maybe die of starvation as I tried.

Utterly irrelavent. Every word of scripture is written by God Almighty. The particular instrument He used to inscripturate His word is no more relavent than which pen you use to send a love letter to your wife.

The *fullness* of new covenant doctrinal truth was given to us by God through His instrument Paul. It is found all through the scriptures, but most fully through Paul.

Yes. God chose to give to us the clearest...and most voluminous...new covenant church doctrine through Paul. Why? He chose to do it that way. So....I select mostly those.

Actually, in the gospels and the rest of the new testament scriptures we see the great truths of the new covenant alluded to, touched on, proclaimed partially, etc...while God used Paul to gush forth these truths in their fullest power. It doesnt mean we lift Paul up over anyone else, but that is simply the way God chose.

The scriptures fit together like a hand in a glove.

Being closer guarantees absolutly nothing. Even as the scriptures were being written, "savage wolves", false teachers, false prophets and and decievers were already inside the church seeking to decieve.

Those qualified to recieve truth from God are those with a humble and teachable heart, who have "ears to hear" their Shepherds voice, and who understand the role Gods scriptures are to have. It makes no difference what century they live in.

It is!

And that was the fatal mistake that led to what we now see as the Catholic Church, in all its tragedy.

You can read the hearts of every born again person from pentecost until now?

God bless,

Mike

 

The thing is, Matt, none of Mike's verses said anything about being justified by "faith alone". The one verse in the Bible (James 2:24) that mentions "faith alone" in relation to justification clearly states we are justified by works and not by faith alone.

I think so as well. The "savage wolves" whom Paul spoke of were the heretics (docetists, ebionites, gnostics, marcionites, etc) the early fathers fought against, not the fathers themselves.

Exactly.

 

Matt Black,

The scriptures Matt, the scriptures!

Thats why we reject the false teaching of the Catholic Church in these areas. We must have evidence...and evagelicals do.

I havent because I test all things against the scriptures...hence I see and understand justification through faith alone, as they scriptures I shared thunder home that truth.

And every word they taught is to be tested with Gods scriptures. That which lines up can be considered interesting reading, but no more. That wich does not line up goes where it belongs...in the garbage can.

The scriptures were written by God, using men as instruments. They were adressed to all born again people of all time. The situations are all of the situations that any christian finds themselves in that call for those passages to be consulted.

The old testament, the gospels, and epistles fit together like a hand in a glove.

The scriptures I have posted thunder home...along with probably thousands of others...Gods truth of justification through faith alone. Considering what God has to say about any false gospel that includes works I sincerely hope that every christian alive comes to grip with this so very foundational truth.

God bless,

Mike

 

I note that the scriptures you posted were New Testament... which is odd, since the NT wasn't canonized until the fourth century or so.

What is there in the Old Testament?

 

Hab 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

No faith plus works here! Could it be that this is where Paul got it from? ya think?

In HIS service;
Jim

 

Paul makes it clear in Heb 11 - the OT saints were saved .. even those not knowing every thing that Paul taught.

In 2Tim 3 it is clear that Timothy as a CHILD was saved.

in 2 Tim 1 - Paul argues for the clear conscience and pure faith of HIS forefathers pre-Cross.

The fact that the church was going into error in Christs day (Mark 7 - doctrines of MAN replacing the Word of God) did not stop John the Baptizer from being saved!

Your premise is flawed.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Matt Black,

Utter nonsesne. The scriptures fit together like a hand in a glove. The gospels, the epistles, the new and old testaments.

Nonsense. Multipled millions over the course of the last 2000 years have believed precisely as I do...even prior to the wonderful God empowered reformation.

Do you test those teachings against the word of God, and discard into the trash can that which contradicts?

Thats a shame. They are teaching you hidious error and you reject that God apointed "truth detector" that He has provided.

And that is your very very huge mistake.

The interpreter of the scriptures is the Holy Spirit.

God bless,

Mike

 

"You" would know it - IF you had been using the Acts 17:11 method "approved of by the Apostles!!"

See! Applying the method "APPROVED OF" by the Apostles in Acts 17:11 is "a good thing".

This is "so easy"!!

The RCC claims to have a "Short cut" that "gets around scripture" by claiming that "scritpure is unreliable" and so also "The Holy Spirit" is unreliable! Only the infallible Pope is "reliable" if you want to believe truth.

What a hoot!

EVERY church could claim that for their OWN leadership (the RCC hopes you wont see that).

Then they could ALSO say of THEIR OWN leadership (AND "our leadership did not infallibly ordain the slaughter of millions of saints in the dark ages") so in MAKING that SAME claim for THEIR leadership those "other churches" would have an even "CLEANER" system of leaders to "appeal to".

But they don't - because that is not the Apostle-approved Acts 17:11 method -- the "sola scriptura" method!

This is just "soooo easy"!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

What does God's Word "say about that"??

What does the NEW Covenant promise in that regard in Hebrews 8? Are you saved by the NEW Covenant Matt? OR is that tossed out as well?

What does John 16 SAY about it?

What does 1John 2 SAY?

Is it your position that the Bible is so unreliable and so untrustworthy that these simple obvious statements can no longer be "believed"??

Is God just not "able to get the job done" anymore?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hence the obvious point already made ...

Paul makes it clear in Heb 11 - the OT saints were saved .. even those not knowing every thing that Paul taught.

In 2Tim 3 it is clear that Timothy as a CHILD was saved.

in 2 Tim 1 - Paul argues for the clear conscience and pure faith of HIS forefathers pre-Cross.

The fact that the church was going into error in Christs day (Mark 7 - doctrines of MAN replacing the Word of God) did not stop John the Baptizer from being saved!

Your premise is flawed.

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I sure would like hillclimber to elaborate on how anyone would be saved apart from Jesus and the cross!!! It is made pretty clear throughout Paul's epistles and elsewhere that it is the blood of Christ that was shed on the cross that cleanses us from all of our sins. Not even those under the Law could be saved by the blood of goats and bulls, but only by the blood of Jesus Christ!

 

True - Enoch was translated directly to heaven because of the blood of Jesus. Not because of the blood of animals. Elijah was taken directly to heaven - not by the blood of animals but by the forgiving power of the blood of Jesus alone.

Moses stood with Elijah in glorified form and spoke with Christ in Matt 17 on the mt of transfiguration - because of the benefits of the blood of Christ.

For as Romans 4 says "God counts those things that are NOT - as though they ARE"!

God is not bounded by time.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Matt,

Exactly what kind of evidence are you looking for? Self-published evidence? You correctly point out that most could not even read except for those trained by the Roman church. Why do you think they kept this privelige to themselves?

If you're looking for some kind of written history of those who were putting their faith in Christ rather than the Roman institution - !!!!!!!! Who do you think controlled all of the printed media? What do you think happened to any written evidence there might have been?

Who do you think they were persecuting and killing during that time? Only witches and Jews? I'm sure there were plenty of true believers labeled as criminals, troublemakers, heretics, or even Satan worshippers. After all, that is exactly what the religious establishment did to Christ (God's own Son!!!) when he was on earth! And as I read in the Scriptures (a privelige I have in part due to the many who gave their LIVES to translate them into languages for everyone to understand) Christ told us that if they treated Him that way, we should expect the same! Perhaps the only reason that the Roman church isn't still persecuting God's people is because of the current political and religious environment created after the Reformation!

This is evidence enough for me.

Randy

[ April 10, 2005, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: drspinko ]

 

Say what?! I've neaver heard that the RCC teaches that "scripture is unreliable". Do the Orthodox also teach this? Can you point me to Council documents that teach this?