SLEEP in the Dust of the Earth

wopik · Feb 21, 2005

The Bible says the Dead are ASLEEP in the dust of the earth (Daniel 12:2 / 1Thess 4:13-15).

The reason many Christians can not accept this FACT of Scripture is because they have been lied to about going to Heaven immediately at death, which is a false doctrine.

What does your denomination teach ?

tragic_pizza · Feb 21, 2005

To live is Christ, and to die is gain.

What possible difference does it make whether there is an instantaneous temporal presence in eternity, or if that presence in eternity isn't temporally immediate? Sleeping or not makes no difference at all in the eventual outcome, which is eternal life or eternal darkness.

Can we please, please stop this incessant straining at gnats?

Phillip · Feb 21, 2005

This is true, tragic_pizza because if we are unconscious during death, the time will not pass slowly. It will seem like an instant between the time we die and are ressurected.

I still have to go back to the statement Jesus made on the cross--today you will be with me in paradise.

How about Moses who was seen with Jesus by Peter and other disciples? Obviously, they were not unconscious in a grave.

tragic_pizza · Feb 21, 2005

Also a good point.

Clearly, making our temporal experience fit with the eternal doesn't work.

God probably has the whole thing figured out, though.

Nevertheless · Feb 21, 2005

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
God probably has the whole thing figured out, though.
Click to expand...

If that's not the understatement of the century, I don't know what is!

just-want-peace · Feb 21, 2005

God probably has the whole thing figured out, though.
Click to expand...

Touche'!, Slam Dunk!

I can just imagine God watching us puny humans trying to figure Him out!!?? Infinitely more comical than us watching a squirrel figure out a way around the latest "squirrel-proof" bird feeder.

wopik · Feb 22, 2005

How about Moses who was seen with Jesus by Peter and other disciples? Obviously, they were not unconscious in a grave.
Click to expand...

that was merely a vision (Matt 17:9).

Peter also saw a vision (Acts 10:17).

St. John was in vision when he wrote Revelation.

wopik · Feb 22, 2005

just-want-peace

I can just imagine God watching us puny humans trying to figure Him out!!??
Click to expand...

Hi, everyone!

Perhaps we are supposed to try and figure some of this stuff out ----

2Timothy
2:15
Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

menageriekeeper · Feb 22, 2005

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How about Moses who was seen with Jesus by Peter and other disciples? Obviously, they were not unconscious in a grave.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

that was merely a vision (Matt 17:9).
Click to expand...

What? You mean Christ only thought he was talking to Moses? You mean Peter and the other disciples were dreaming and didn't really see Jesus talking to Moses? Maybe some sort of time continuom/startrek type thing was going on?

Bartimaeus · Mar 5, 2005

Hello Wopik,
Just me again. Just wondering when you will stop the ruse. Why call yourself Baptist and continue to throw a yoke on the necks of new Christians. I believe James spoke about this issue in Acts 15. BTW were you there? Did you take part in the debate. Oh! I am so sorry....I am not swinging a staff like a tender of sheep. But I really would like to know what the name of the fellowship is that you attend and where it is located? (Haven't I ask this before, many many times with no answer?) Please help us out.
Thanks So Very Much ------Bart

aa0310 · Mar 5, 2005

The teaching that the soul "sleeps" after death is completely against Scripture, and has its origin in hell!

None other than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, the Greatest Authority on Scripture, told the pentant thief on the cross, that, "today (that is, THIS DAY), you will be with me in paradise"!!! NOT, as the SDA and other supporters of this soul-sleep heresy, will have it read, "today, you shall be with Me...", where the move the coma to accomodate their heretical doctrines! The Bible uses "sleep" to denote "death", see John chapter 11, and you will understand. Paul said that it was far better for him to depart and be with the Lord, where the Greek word for "better", is "an advantage". (Colossians 1:23), which would mean nothing if it was to be in a few years time!

BobRyan · Mar 6, 2005

Actually - Luke 23 was written in Greek - not English.

This comes as a big surprise to some people on this board - and "yet" it is true.

42 And he was saying, ""Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!''
43 And He said to him, ""Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise.''

NOTICE the "WHEN" statement "WHEN you come into your Kingdom" (A clear reference to Daniel 7 and the Son of Man receiving a Kingdom).

And Christ responds saying that the thief WOULD (future tense) be WITH Christ in Paradise.

What do we know about the NT concept of Paradise?

1. Paradise is where the Tree of life is - according to scripture (Rev 2:7)

2. Paradise is where the Throne of God is (Rev 22:2, 14)

3. Paradise is in the "Third heaven" (2 Cor 12:2-4).
Click to expand...

And "as it turns out" these are ALL THE REFERENCES to it in scripture. So "making stuff up" about it BEYOND what you find in these texts is at best "wishful thinking".

So that leaves us with the question - DID Christ go to the throne of God on that Friday?

John 20:17 AFTER the resurrection "I HAVE NOT YET ascended to My Father".

Now lets get to the more direct question asked by AA0310 -- IS it really TRUE that the 1Thess 4:13-15 reference to the saints "who are alseep" is a statement the ckmes to us "from hell" as AA0310??

Is it true that the reference to the saints sleeping in 1Cor 11 comes from hell?

And is it true the reference to this fact - made by Christ in John 11, "comes hell" as AA0310 claims?

I mean - COULD that even BE TRUE?

I don't think so.

What about 1Cor 15?

1Cor 15:16
For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
35 But someone will say, ""How are the dead raised? And WITH what kind of body do they come?''
Click to expand...

Now let’s Rewrite this to see how it would be written to show that only the bodies are “asleep” while the Person becomes “Alive in Christ” at death by contrast. (As a help to AA0310)

For if the dead bodies of the Alive in Christ are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those who are alive in Christ in heaven at death will have their decaying corpses (asleep in Christ) perish instead of merely sleeping.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those Alive in Christ who have decaying corpses that are asleep.
35 But someone will say, ""How are the dead bodies raised? And WITH what kind of body do the dead bodies come?''
Click to expand...

WOW! What a rewrite!

The “really fascinating” part of this is that 1Cor 15 DOES have a segment that IS just focused on the BODY of the saints.

So Finally we have a text that does NOT need to be rewritten so that it applies Only to the body – the decaying corpse of the Person. Here it is…

1Cor 15
35 But someone will say, ""How are the dead raised? And [/b]With what kind of body do they come[/b]?''
36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless IT dies;
37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
38 But God gives IT a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. IT is sown a perishable body, IT is raised an imperishable body;
43 IT is sown in dishonor,IT is raised in glory; ITt is sown in weakness, IT is raised in power;
44 IT is sown a natural body, IT is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, ""The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.'' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as We have borne the image of the earthy, We will also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; WE will not all sleep, but WE will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and WE will be Changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But When this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, Then will come about the saying that is written, "" DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
55 "" O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?''
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
Click to expand...

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Mar 9, 2005

Notice that in 1Thess 4 it is the PERSON that is asleep. But when the BODY of the person is the subject (as in the case above - 1Cor 15) then "IT" is decaying and "IT" is dust and "IT" is one thing vs another entirely different thing when raised.

In 1Cor15 we see the perfect deliniation between the "WE" the PERSON that is raised and the IT - the body that is given to the PERSON.

Don't miss that.

In Christ,

Bob

SLEEP in the Dust of the Earth

wopik New Member

tragic_pizza New Member

Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

tragic_pizza New Member

Nevertheless New Member

just-want-peace Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

wopik New Member

wopik New Member

menageriekeeper Active Member

Bartimaeus New Member

aa0310 New Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

Useful Searches

SLEEP in the Dust of the Earth

wopik New Member

tragic_pizza New Member

Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

tragic_pizza New Member

Nevertheless New Member

just-want-peace Well-Known Member Site Supporter

wopik New Member

wopik New Member

menageriekeeper Active Member

Bartimaeus New Member

aa0310 New Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

BobRyan Well-Known Member

just-want-peace Well-Known Member
Site Supporter