Obey Father and Mother even when they are wrong

Sorry, Curtis, but I'm not a mind reader.

If you wish for me to answer a question, you will have to ask it first.

[ January 10, 2003, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

The commandment is to "honour" (kabad - Glorify)your father and your mother, not "obey" (shama - be obedient/hearken to)-KJV. It would be possible to glorify them on an on-going basis and not offer obeisance concerning the RCC thing. Communication would be the key to your problem IMO.

If this has been said already - sorry, I didn't read all the posts with nasties in them.

A friend - Jim

 

I thought so, Ron. You can't answer it.

Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

Maybe somebody else will.

[ January 10, 2003, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Bro. Curtis ]

 

As I have already said in this thread, it is necessary to consider the qualifier in the above in order to understand the meaning of the above sentence.

"knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ"

If one knows, meaning believes to be true, that God founded the Church through Christ, as part of His plan for our salvation, and then refused to be a part of that Church, one would be in disobedience to God.

Would one who is in disobedience to God be saved?

Lets look at a different but related matter as an example of this.

On this board there are Christians who are not Catholic who believe that Baptism by water is necessary for salvation. They believe that God commanded Baptism as necessary for salvation and believe that they find this command in the Bible.

Would a Christian, who believes that God commanded Baptism as necessary for salvation, be saved if they refused Baptism?

I don't think so, because such a person would be in deliberate opposition to God's will as they knew it.

Or lets take an example more in keeping to your beliefs. I think that you would say that to be saved, one must repent and accept Jesus as Savior.

If one believed that it was necessary to repent and accept Jesus, but refused to repent and decided that all that they were willing to do was accept Jesus, would one be saved?

I think that you would say, "no".

So what it comes down to is, what is your level of knowledge of what it is that God wants from you and do you submit to what God wants or do you defy God.

Getting back to the Church as necessary for salvation, God will decide if you are saved or not. God will also read your heart and determine what is your knowledge of the necessity of being a part of the Church. God will also decide whether you did not know/believe that the Church is a part of His plan through no fault of your own, through a genuine lack of understanding, or by deliberate choice.

If there is any part of this that you do not understand, or if my words are unclear, I am happy to try to explain further.

[ January 10, 2003, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

Your words are clear, the catechism means nothing. Never did, never will. It's all double speak, meant to confuse, intimidate, and bully people into a church, instead of a relationship with God, thru his Son.

Makes me SO very glad to be a true New Testament Christian. Praise God!

 

Good point! No Catholic has ever told me that. Strange.

This type of pressure will keep people from leaving the religion. We know Muslims, Mormons, JW's do this. Why hasn't Rome?

 

Well, Curtis, your response causes me to question how sincere you were in asking repeatedly for an answer.

Now that I have taken the time and effort to give you an answer that I thought that you would understand, you simply dismiss it.

Perhaps you could address the issues instead of taking pointless shots at me and/or the Church.

Would someone who refused to repent but accepted Jesus still be saved? Why or why not?

 

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 ......the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

You had better take the time to defend it, for the catechism teaches it. If Nimrod is NOT saved because he left the Roman Catholic Church, then where is he going when he dies? Heaven? NO! Hell. So saith the catechism. Thank God my Bible doesn't say that. Now, the catechism isn't speaking of the universal catholic Church here, it is speaking specifically about the Catholic Church under papal authority. I guess by this teaching, I am not saved either and also heading for hell. Seeing that I refuse to enter the Catholic Church under papal authority. I am however in the one universal Church of Christ, His body which is made up of ALL born-again believers. By the way, I am not anti-catholic. I am anti-papal Catholicism.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Just to clarify something for you, when you read the CCC try to understand it is not written in the context of defending their teaching, it is not an apologetic work, it is a catechism.

What all that stuff in the quote means is this; the faith that ALL-Christians have is thanks to the RCC because before 1500, there basically was no Protestantism, do you understand that? No one challenged the teachings of the Church and NNE believed in OSAS before this time period either. So therefore what “no salvation through the Church” means is simply that YOUR belief in Jesus is thanks to the RCC because the RCC were the first ones to preach and teach the world about Jesus. It was the teaching of the RCC that John Calvin and all the other reformers picked and chose their doctrine from and the things that they so happened to have kept, Like the trinity and the belief that Jesus is the son of God…came from the RCC. So if you are saved, thank ole’RCC because with out them Calvin, Luther and Pastor Joe down the road would not have this “faith” to spread about.

Now regarding baptism, I think you must have missed the part of the CCC that clearly says that God created the sacraments, but he is not bound by them so the position of the RCC is this; if anyone is saved no matter who, no matter where it is because of the grace of God through Jesus Christ. The RCC teaches that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world and if someone is saved it’s through Jesus and although he gave us his Church he himself can save whomever he wishes in or outside of the Church.

And the last part of your post is redundant because to put down the office of the pope, is to be anti catholic.

 

I would like to thank all the followers of the pope for answering my question. There is alot of double speak going on here. I asked a specific question and have yet to get the answer. Since I know what the catechism says and yet I am very much against papal Catholicism, even though I am taking John 3:16;14:6, Romans 3:23, Ephesians 2:8-10, and ultimately the whole Holy Bible for what it says, am I going to hell? From what the catechism says, am I going to hell, am I an unsaved person? Which Church is the catechism referring to? (c)atholic as in universal or (C)atholic as in papal Catholicism? All Catholics should know there is a difference. Yes, even the catechism of Rome makes that distinction.

Brother Curtis, I agree with you. Will they(papal Catholics) continue to walk blindly around instead heeding to the Lord our God?

 

Look up the board and you will see that I gave an answer.

If you are not going to read, why ask?

[ January 10, 2003, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

Guess you must have missed this.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by The_Narrow_Road:
Like I said, I know what the catechism says and since I earnestly rebuke papal Catholicism, am I saved? I protest against Catholicism and I am in a Church that protests against Catholicism so, will I go to Heaven? By catechismal interpretation, what is your answer?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Like I said, if you are not going to read the answers, why bother to ask the question?

 

Is there any hope for me to be in purgatory? Or is it straight to hell for my dispisal of the papal Church of Rome? Do you mean to say we can never be sure of our salvation? Or is that just those who are not members of the papal Church? Oh, help me! I don't want to go to hell!

Wait, I'm getting a revelation.......yes......it's coming clearer......what's that..........I can see it now........ John 14:6......yes Lord......"Jesus saith unto them, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man cometh unto the Father but by Me"....Thank You Jesus! Free at last, free at last! Praise God Almighty, I'm free at last!

I rebuke papal Catholicism in the Name of Jesus my Saviour! Jesus came to set the captives free, not put them back in bondage to sacramentalism, ritualism, and religion.

My hope is built on nothing less that Jesus' blood and righteousness.

 

Thank you for confirming for me that you are not someone to be taken seriously.

 

[/QUOTE]Thank you for confirming for me that you are not someone to be taken seriously.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Yes, and you've just shown me that you don't take the Word of God seriously. Bow out gracefully or accept the Truth that can set you free. You can't twist John 14:6 to mean "you must be a part of papal Catholicism or risk hellfire."(IMO) As I read the catechism I can see so clearly how papish rule has taken words out of context and twisted them until the look like boy scout knot. For instance (c)atholic, lower case c means universal. The catechism states this. (C)atholic means a Church organization/denomination. Yet, the catechism intertwines both as the same. Obviously they are not or the Holy Bible is false. So who are we to believe? A God who cannot lie? Or a fallible papish Catholicism? I've made my choice loud and clear...I will not bow down to romish rule. I serve the Living God.

 

The Catholic Church is the universal church.

 

This is a answer for all followers of John Calvin, Martin Luther and Pastor Joe, Billy-Bob, and Larry down the road. NO, NO, NO! The RCC does not condemn ANYONE to hell because we teach that we simple can not know the mind of God and we will/can not put limits on his mercy nor will we speak to how he can make the work of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross efficacious.

Now, if there are any other Catholics on the forum who disagree with me or with my interpretation of the CCC then please come forward. I have double-talked nothing and I am sorry if the truth that Catholics are not hell condemning crazy people disappoint you.

 

Narrow Rod,

What you are not getting is that ONLY, and I mean only if someone KNOWS with out a doubt that the RCC is the true Church that Christ founded and they KNOW, and I mean really know that all she purposes for our belief is true and they willingly, willfully reject that for whatever reason, then and only then will they be in JEPORDY of damnation because they know whom it is that they are denying in the blessed sacrament of the alter.

God has mercy on his separated children, he does not hold them bound by their ignorance. Haven't you've heard that ignorance is bliss? He does not dam anyone for not being Catholic if they are blinded to the truth, but if they are not blind and willingly reject the faith KNOWING all the while what she teaches is true then they are putting themselves in danger.

Now ask yourself, do you truly in your heart know that the RCC is the true Church? If the answer is "no, I don't believe that it is" then God will not condemn you because you are blind, but he will give you grace after to grace to accept the truth and that is something that is between you and God.

In regards to Nimrod, if this boy is being fed anti catholic rhetoric against the church, I assume God will take into account that and he does not know what the church really teaches so what he is rejecting is not what he really is rejecting since he, like you, believe a myth.

Bishop Fulten Sheen made a quote saying, "People don't hate Catholicism, the hate what they think Catholicism is."

 

How about obeying yourself and your own heart? If that is what you want, go for it. If you feel strongly about something, do it. Having that good old fashioned Catholic guilt on your head is more harm than good. What if your parents told you to join a satanic cult, would you follow their orders too just because you're to obey them? You are an adult now I assume? By the way, don't let anyone convince you that you're going to Hell because you've done or not done this or that, only God makes that decision.
Best Wishes

 

Well, Curtis, your response causes me to question how sincere you were in asking repeatedly for an answer.

Now that I have taken the time and effort to give you an answer that I thought that you would understand, you simply dismiss it.

Perhaps you could address the issues instead of taking pointless shots at me and/or the Church.

Would someone who refused to repent but accepted Jesus still be saved? Why or why not?</font>[/QUOTE]Curtis, I'm hoping you will answer my question as I have answered yours.

 

How about obeying yourself and your own heart? If that is what you want, go for it. If you feel strongly about something, do it. Having that good old fashioned Catholic guilt on your head is more harm than good. What if your parents told you to join a satanic cult, would you follow their orders too just because you're to obey them? You are an adult now I assume? By the way, don't let anyone convince you that you're going to Hell because you've done or not done this or that, only God makes that decision.
Best Wishes</font>[/QUOTE]So is it your position that one must "obey" themselves over the commandments of God? And has anyone here ever heard of an objective truth? That is something that is true regardless what we think and feel, wish and hope to be true. God is an objective truth and his commands are not subjective but objective.

If this boy is 18 and he chooses not to go to mass that is his choice and his parents should not force him to go, but if this boy is shoving his personal subjective feelings about what his parents, in their parental wisdom, profess as their religious belief, he needs to step back. If he expects his parents to respect him, he needs to respect them first and show respect for their beliefs regardless of what his personal feelings are pertaining to them.

And were you even trying to suggest that Catholicism is equal to a satanic cult?