Obey Father and Mother even when they are wrong

Good point! No Catholic has ever told me that. Strange.

This type of pressure will keep people from leaving the religion. We know Muslims, Mormons, JW's do this. Why hasn't Rome?</font>[/QUOTE]Umm...let's see...maybe because Rome does not hold that as a belief, maybe that's why???

I know this must be rough but Catholics are not hell condemning non-Christians that you so badly want to believe they are.

 

How about obeying yourself and your own heart? If that is what you want, go for it. If you feel strongly about something, do it. Having that good old fashioned Catholic guilt on your head is more harm than good. What if your parents told you to join a satanic cult, would you follow their orders too just because you're to obey them? You are an adult now I assume? By the way, don't let anyone convince you that you're going to Hell because you've done or not done this or that, only God makes that decision.
Best Wishes</font>[/QUOTE]So is it your position that one must "obey" themselves over the commandments of God? And has anyone here ever heard of an objective truth? That is something that is true regardless what we think and feel, wish and hope to be true. God is an objective truth and his commands are not subjective but objective.

If this boy is 18 and he chooses not to go to mass that is his choice and his parents should not force him to go, but if this boy is shoving his personal subjective feelings about what his parents, in their parental wisdom, profess as their religious belief, he needs to step back. If he expects his parents to respect him, he needs to respect them first and show respect for their beliefs regardless of what his personal feelings are pertaining to them.

And were you even trying to suggest that Catholicism is equal to a satanic cult?</font>[/QUOTE]No I wasn't suggesting anything like that. What I am saying is, that just because they are your parents, does not mean that they are 100% right on anything. Being older and the parent of someone does not automatically make you smarter than anyone else.

Anyone notice how we're sitting here debating this and Nimrod is no where to be found?

 

How about obeying yourself and your own heart? If that is what you want, go for it. If you feel strongly about something, do it. Having that good old fashioned Catholic guilt on your head is more harm than good. What if your parents told you to join a satanic cult, would you follow their orders too just because you're to obey them? You are an adult now I assume? By the way, don't let anyone convince you that you're going to Hell because you've done or not done this or that, only God makes that decision.
Best Wishes</font>[/QUOTE]So is it your position that one must "obey" themselves over the commandments of God? And has anyone here ever heard of an objective truth? That is something that is true regardless what we think and feel, wish and hope to be true. God is an objective truth and his commands are not subjective but objective.

If this boy is 18 and he chooses not to go to mass that is his choice and his parents should not force him to go, but if this boy is shoving his personal subjective feelings about what his parents, in their parental wisdom, profess as their religious belief, he needs to step back. If he expects his parents to respect him, he needs to respect them first and show respect for their beliefs regardless of what his personal feelings are pertaining to them.

And were you even trying to suggest that Catholicism is equal to a satanic cult?</font>[/QUOTE]No I wasn't suggesting anything like that. What I am saying is, that just because they are your parents, does not mean that they are 100% right on anything. Being older and the parent of someone does not automatically make you smarter than anyone else.

Anyone notice how we're sitting here debating this and Nimrod is no where to be found?</font>[/QUOTE]The bottom line is this; Nimrod's parents are Catholic and that is their right to be so and if their 18 year old son who thinks he knows everything at age 18 wants to reject Catholicism then that is his right to do so, but what is not his right is to "witness" to his parents or anyone for that matter the anti catholic rhetoric he has been spurring. He should LEARN first what it is he is bashing and not from other anti Catholics, but from practicing devoted Catholics and leave his parents alone and at peace in their faith.

 

You didn't answer anything, Ron.

 

You didn't answer anything, Ron.</font>[/QUOTE]They've answered a lot for me. I know without a shadow of a doubt that they are in a religion. Nothing more. Sad, so sad. It isn't in the Bible to "believe on the Church that Christ founded and thou shalt be saved". They have told me that I am going to hell because I am not part of the "Universal Catholic Church of Rome under the pope". Why? Because I follow the Bible in concern for my Salvation. John 14:6, Ephesians 2:8-10
Thank God that I am Saved by His Grace and not by joining some Church. He saves me and makes me a part of His Church and it isn't Papal Catholicism. Praise His dear name!

 

Curtis, why do you not enter into the discussion?

You make demands and complaints but offer no substance.

By their fruits...

Ron

 

Because I'm still waiting for a yes or no answer to everyone's question. There is nothing else for me to discuss.

 

Curtis, I do not believe that you are sincere.

 

Why is it that someone like TheNarrowRoad still refuses to accept that the point he's making is wrong? He's going on and on saying that the RCC believes all non-catholics will go to hell. Nothing could be further from fact than his position.

The RCC recognizes most non-catholic Christians as "separated brethren" (generally speaking, protestants). The RCC also recognizes that the separated brethren are in communion with the Catholic Church. In its statement that says salvation is granted to those within the Church, that is inclusive of the separated brethren. In other words, all Christians are granted salvation. A member of the RCC who leaves the church and becomes a separated brethren Christian is still saved.

Still, he won't believe it.

[ January 13, 2003, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

I've already quoted the Catechism on this issue. Since I deny the authority of papal Catholicism from what the Catechism says, I am not saved and sentenced to hell for rejecting "the Church which Christ founded." Funny(not really) I can't find that in the Bible. I do, however, find John 14:6, Ephesians 2:8-10, Romans 3:23, John 3:16-18 among many others. I have Biblical salvation. I don't need papal romish Catholic works salvation.

 

Here is the sentence in it's entirety.

"Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336"

Your continued refusal to acknowledge the words " knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ " indicates to me either a lack of reading comprehension and critical thinking skills on your part or a desire to bear false witness.

Perhaps you could change my perception of you by expanding on your position in light of those highlighted words.

[ January 13, 2003, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

""I don't need papal romish Catholic works salvation.""

Bringing the conversation to a higher plane. Thanks a lot.

 

Ron. Sorry about the delayed response, but bear with me. Single dad stuff......

Repentance is required for salvation, but I think we have different definitions of the word. Without repentance, one would not admit the need for a savior.

Now your other question. I think we can agree that the First Baptist Church of Corinth was probably the most carnal church in history. And the letters to other churches in that time era had problems, also. Completely out of the will of God. But Paul still addresses those folks as "saints", "bretheren", and "believers". So yes, a christian can be out of the will of God but still be saved. The Holy Spirit will make them miserable, but they are still saved. One who never admits the need for a savior could not be saved.

[ January 14, 2003, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Bro. Curtis ]

 

Here is the sentence in it's entirety.

"Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336"

Your continued refusal to acknowledge the words " knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ " indicates to me either a lack of reading comprehension and critical thinking skills on your part or a desire to bear false witness.

Perhaps you could change my perception of you by expanding on your position in light of those highlighted words.</font>[/QUOTE]O.K. since I've read the catechism, yes I do know that the catechism says that the Catholic Church(one under the authority of the pope)was founded as necessary by God through Christ. Yet, I reject that whole heartedly. I do NOT see that in the Scriptures. So my question is "yes" or "no", by CCC documentation am I saved? Don't say that God only knows. From the catechism, what is your answer. I can't be a seperated brethren because I preach against the pope. What does John 14:6 mean? Why doesn't it mention a Church organization? What about John 3:16-18? Again, no Church mentioned. What is the Biblical definition of Church? What is the Biblical definition of body of Christ?

 

Curtis, what about someone who truly believes that Baptism is a neccesity for salvation; someone who came to this belief soley from Scripture, who then still refuses to be Baptized.

Is such a person saved?

 

I don't know how to answer that. It goes a few different directions.

1st, baptism is not required for salvation.

2nd, anyone who believes they are a sinner, doomed to hell, and trusts Christ as the only method of reconciliation between them and God, is saved. It's really that simple.

 

There still appears to be a reading comprehension problem.

The sentence in question reads "...knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God...".

Not "knowing that the Catholic Church teaches in the Catechism that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God...".

Do you see the difference?

So then it appears that you do not "know that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God".

The Catechism consists of more than just that one sentence. In other parts of the Catechism you will find something about "invincible ignorance" which means that you are accountable to God to the extent that you are responsible for your lack of understanding of Truth.

In that neither I nor the Church are able to judge how responsible you are for your lack of understanding and acceptance of the fact that God founded the Catholic Church as necessary, that judgement is left to God.

You can stamp your feet and demand a yes or no answer all you want. That doesn't mean that their is one.

Since "seperated bretheren" is a term used by the Catholic Church, perhaps you could exercise a little crtical thinking by first discovering what the term means to the Church rather than trying to invent your own.

[ January 14, 2003, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

There still appears to be a reading comprehension problem.

The sentence in question reads "...knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God...".

Not "knowing that the Catholic Church teaches in the Catechism that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God...".

Do you see the difference?

So then it appears that you do not "know that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God".

The Catechism consists of more than just that one sentence. In other parts of the Catechism you will find something about "invincible ignorance" which means that you are accountable to God to the extent that you are responsible for your lack of understanding of Truth.

In that neither I nor the Church are able to judge how responsible you are for your lack of understanding and acceptance of the fact that God founded the Catholic Church as necessary, that judgement is left to God.

You can stamp your feet and demand a yes or no answer all you want. That doesn't mean that their is one.

Since "seperated bretheren" is a term used by the Catholic Church, perhaps you could exercise a little crtical thinking by first discovering what the term means to the Church rather than trying to invent your own.</font>[/QUOTE]So is the catechism your teaching guide or is the Holy Bible? I've quoted Scripture showing that the "Church which Christ founded" is not the Way of Salvation. What is your "control" for knowing the Truth?

Can anyone provide me with a Roman Catholic dictionary seeing that words that the Bible says mean one thing means something entirely different in the papal Catholic Religion.

What is the RCC definition of salvation?
eternal life?
justification?
grace?
redeemed?
forgiven?
sanctified?

I know what the Bible says, but what does the RCC say about these words? Can we protestants really truly not understand the Word of God without the magisterium?

Was Jesus Christ lying when He said that the Comforter would be sent to guide us into all truth? Is the pope the Holy Spirit? Maybe if I had an apparition of Mary, then I could accept Roman Catholicism as Christianity. Maybe if you Catholics earnestly pray to her to show herself to me, then she will answer your prayer and I'll see your "queen of heaven" and believe.

 

We are talking about one particular sentence in the Catechism.

Why are you attempting to divert the topic?

Why do you not directly address the points which I made to you in my last post?

 

Again, I need a Roman Catholic dictionary. Can anyone help? I guess Webster forgot to differentiate when he was making his.