GODS 10 COMMANDMENTS

Bob:
All scripture is inspired of God ( II Tim. 3:16). However, not all scripture is binding authority for teaching and practice. Noah did not keep the same law as Abraham as he was not subject or under the autority of it. Abraham did not keep the old law. He did not keep it because he was not under the authority of the old law. The patriarchs kept the laws given to them by God during their dispensation.

Moses did not keep the laws given the patriarchs. He did not do so because he was not under the authority of the laws given the patriarchs. The disciples of John did not keep the old law as Moses received it. The Bible says the law and the prophets were until John. Men today do not keep the old law because they are not under the authority of the old law ( Mat. 28:18-20, Mark 1:15;16:15,16,Romans 1:16;6:17,18,I Cor. 15:1-4;9:21).

The question is not is the old law scripture, it is. The real question of importance should be is the old law binding upon men today in matters of faith. The gospel of Christ says, No! ( Eph. 2:15, Col.3:17, Gal. 5:3,4). There is no scriptural authority for keeeping the old law today.

 

Laws that "start" in the future are obviously not binding on those people in the past who did not know about them.

But that is not the issue with Christ the Creator's 10 commandments and the efforts of many Christians to abolish them.

I am not sure how your example helps to make your case.

Cain "broke the 6th commandment" though we don't find that commandment in code until Exodus. It was binding on him - but as you state it had to be something that he was informed about.

"Obviously" the first 6 chapters of Genesis do not form an exhaustive account of everything mankind knew for 1500 years.

Though some find great delight in "pretending" that is the case.

Do you have an example of one?

Fascinating - they abolished scripture - had no NT scripture and just "went with nothing"??

In that case all the quoting we see Christ and the Apostles doing "from scripture" is kinda pointless. They only quote from the Law and the Prophets (and of course the Psalms - or maybe you still stick with that??)

The question is - "Where does God's LAW get the name "OLD LAW" in His Word?". Or is that a term of affection you use for Christ the Creator's Law?

Agreed.

Romans 7 says "yes"

Eph 6:1-4 says "yes"

James 2 says "yes"

Romans 13 says "yes"

Rom 3:31 says "yes"

Rom 2:13 says "yes"

Ummm. I am "guessing here" but I think the answer would have to be "yes".

In Christ,

Bob

 

"You observe days, and months, and seasons, and years! I am afraid I have labored over you in vain" (Gal 4:10f).

 

Attributing the texts quoted above in Romans 7, James 2, Romans 2:13 and Exodus 20 to the "pagan practices of Gal 4" == which is the "Weak and elemental things of that which is not God" according to Paul in Gal 4- makes God the author of paganism and is bold form of eisegesis.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Though Carson rejects Pope John Paul's views as quoted below - still I thought it would be fun to quote.

The "I pay no attention to the Sabbath" views - expressed by some of our Catholic friends - is not "in complete harmony" with what the Pope has said.

Much less the claim that Carson makes above - that the 10 commandments and Christ the Creator's 7th-day holy day made holy at creation in Gen 2:3 - made "for mankind" Mark 2:27 - is in fact the "return to paganism" described in Gal 4.


In Christ,

Bob

 

Earlier Frank said:

To which Bob said:

But Romans 7 says no such thing.Instead it speaks of the commandments as bring "death" and "sin":

"And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me"(Ro.7:10,11).

The Commandments are described as "the law of sin and death".That is why Paul calls the Ten Commandments "the ministration of death":

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones..."(2Cor.3:7).

So there can be no doubt that "the law of sin and death" is in reference to the Ten Commandments.And Paul could not possibly make himself any plainer when he says that the Christian is "free" from the law of sin and death:

" For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh"(Ro.8:2,3).

The Christian is "free" from the demands of the Ten Commandments despite those who would attempt to place us under the bondage of the law.We are "free" from the law,and that is why Paul can tell the Christian that "all things are lawful unto me"(1Cor.6:12;10:23).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

Downsville,

We are not to "walk in the spirit of the law",but instead we are to "walk after the Spirit":

"There is,therefore,no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus,who walk not after the flesh,but after the Spirit"(Ro.8:1).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

Actually, there is no Hebrew word for "times" in that passage. "observe times" is the translation of a single word that means "practice magic". In Gal.4, it is not so, as the word "times", simply means "occasion" or "season", but the word "observe" in that case means ..."to inspect alongside" (i.e. to note insidiously or scrupulously). "Insidious" can be to "intended to entrap or beguile", or "stealthily treacherous or deceitful", or better yet, "operating/proceeding in an inconspicuous or seemingly harmless way, but actually with grave effect". The trusting in the Law the Jews were "bewitching" them with (3:1ff) was definitely those things. It says nothing of it being astrology or other pagan practices.
Sorry, but you can't always match up English translational words like that, and expect them to mean the same thing in the original.

If you're not keeping all 613 in the letter, you must be.

 

8 however at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no Gods.

Clearly Paul addresses the gentile churches in Galatia and mentions that before becoming Christian they were worshipping false gods. The Hebrew nation-church by contrast was established by the one true God of creation who was to send his only son as messiah-Christ-savior was known by the Hebrews and Paul agrees to this in Romans 3:1-3 as well as his reference to Timothy's up-bringing.

9 but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

Clearly Paul refers to going back to practices of the pagan system - returning to be enslaved by the pagan superstitious practices - again.

1. There is no place where Paul (or any Bible author) calls obedience to God’s Word – “Slavery”. Yet some Christians today prefer to think of it that way.
2. There is no place where Paul (or any Bible author) refers to God’s Word as “The weak and elemental things of this World” – yet some Christians do.
3. There is no place where Paul (or any Bible author) says that the Word of God is “worthless” and “pertaining to that “which by nature is not God”.

Rather – when it comes to abuses of the Word of God – Paul speaks of God’s Word as “Holy Just and Perfect” and as “condemning the sinner” – it is not the Law or the Word of God that he condemns – it is always the sinner that IT condemns. Yet some Christians today – want to so much to abolish Christ the Creator’s Law – that they are willing to turn the text of Gal 4 as it addresses the pagan lifestyle of the gentiles in Galatia and their practices – and attribute to God – the authoring of paganism..


10 you observe days and months and seasons and years.

#1. God's Word did not command His people to "observe seasons or months".

#2. The "observances of days" is mentioned in Romans 14 and the "Condemnation" there is against anyone who would "condemn" the "observances".

Bending Gal 4 to point at the very practices employed in Romans 14 is a abusive example of eisegesis.

Instead of God's Word "being sin" as some have suggested here - it is the Word of God that "condemns sin" according to Paul in Romans 7.


In Christ,

Bob

 

To which Bob said:
Romans 7 says "yes"

[/QUOTE]Jerry said -- But Romans 7 says no such thing.Instead it speaks of the commandments as bring "death" and "sin":[/quote]

There is "no text" in all of scripture (much less Romans 7) Where God, or Paul - or ANY Bible writer calls the Word of God "sin" or calls the commands of God "sin".

In Romans 7 the only thing we find is that God's Word - God's Law - "defines sin"


Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "" YOU SHALL NOT COVET.''
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

When Paul asks "IS the Law SIN"?

Jerry responds "it speaks of the commandments as bring "death" and "sin"

But God's Word declares that it is not God's Word, not God's Law that IS sin - rather it is God's Law that condemns sin, that defines sin, that points out sin and points out the penalty for sin.

Sin - is evil - sin deceives according to the text - sin (rebellion against God) is the problem - NOT the Word of God.

Jerry said

Again - a poor interpretation.

In 2Cor 3 - it is the law "external on tablets of stone" as contrasted to internal (new covenant) and "written on the Tablets of the human heart" that condemns sinners and shows sinners to need salvation.

It is God's Law that defines sin - that condemns sin and that shows our need of Salvation.

Without that starting point - you would not need a Savior today.


The heart of the born again - New Covenant Christian as the "Law of God written on the tablets of the heart" -- and lives in obedience instead of rebellion.

The heart dedicated to rebellion against God seeks "freedom" from His Word - from His "Holy Just and true" LAW - it is not submitted to God's Law "neither indeed CAN it submit to the Law of God" Romans 8:7


That heart might say
The Christian is "free" from the demands of the Ten Commandments despite those who would attempt to place us under the bondage of the law.We are "free" from the law,

I think we can all agree at least on that point.

In Christ,

Bob

 

10 you observe days and months and seasons and years.

NOTE: . This pagan practice is also condemned in the OT
Lev 19: 26 You shall not eat anything with the blood, nor observe times (KJV).

#1. The Greek term for "observe" in Gal 4 is NOT the term used in Romans 14 that is also translated "observe". RAther in the unique Gal 4 case it means to "watch with evil intent" and refers to something like the astrology practices seen today.
Lev 19 describes it in other Bile translations as –
26 "`Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood; neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe omens.(KJ21)
26You shall not eat anything with the blood; neither shall you use magic, omens, or witchcraft [or predict events by horoscope or signs and lucky days].(AMP)
#2. God's Word did not command His people to "observe seasons or months".
#3. Using another word for “observance” -- The "observances of days" is mentioned in Romans 14 and the "Condemnation" there is against anyone who would "condemn" the "observances".
Bending Gal 4 to point at the very practices employed in Romans 14 is a abusive example of eisegesis.

#4. In this case months and seasons are lumped in with days. The indication of a pagan system of practice is clearly - and repeatedly brought to view. Nothing here is ordained by God - established by God - given by God as a practice for God's people. It is utterly condemned as originating from pagan worship alone.

#5. Paul says this is “a return” and that they are “enslaved all over AGAIN” – these gentiles, these converted pagans – were never Jews. They are not returning to “salvation by keeping the Law of God” as something they “used to do”. This is simply “another” problem Paul is identifying among the Galatians that is in “Addition” to their problem with Judaizers

In Christ,

Bob

 

Oh brother, another Bob! The two of you; making long arguments like this about what you think the other side is saying does not make you right. You have to go to the original languages, because that is what God inspired the scriptures in, and thus IS what God's word teaches; not "CONTRARY" to it. People may use all sorts of excuses to teach what they want, but you can't go to the other extreme and knock the whole system of biblical exegesis because of it (much like the radical KJVO's do).

Downsville, as I said before, you are not keeping the entire 613 that were in effect when most of those scriptures were written (neither were we expected to when John and James wrote their scriptures), so taking "commandments" to mean every single law that was ever commanded does not fly.

As for Lev.19 vs. Gal.4, we've been through this on the other thread. I have shown what the original Hebrew and Greek mean (oh, but those are just excuses to conform to one's denominational teaching anyway, right? ). Lev. deals with magical practices ("times"). In Galatians, "times" or "seasons" are "appointed times", and this would include Israel's list of sacred festivals, and they did also have new moons ("months"). "Observe" is the word that conveys the sinfulness of the practice, but this has nothing to do with paganism, but rather the "evil intent" of trying to bring the new converts under bondage.
Paganism was their past, now they have come under influence of apostate Jews trying to bring them under the Law. This is the only thing mentioned in the passage that they were being influenced by. I repeat, "those that were not gods" was a passing mention of their past, and what they were now being brought under, spiritually, is the same state, for the legalistic Jews were just as lost and under "bondage of the elements" as the pagans. See. v.3!
The flow of the passage is:
1. Gentiles previously followed what was no god.
2. They get converted, and are shown the truth
3. They allow themselves to come under the influence of Jewish legalists.
4. They now [still claim to be following the true God, but are doing so in a fashion that leaves them] just as much "in bondage" as they were before, by keeping days God once commanded in a compulsory fashion (as they were demanded of the Israelites before Christ), instead of their own voluntary devotion to the Lord.

Nothing here is ordained by God - established by God - given by God as a mandatory practice for God's people --for NOW, in the Church age. They were given by God in the OT as our "tutor" to bring us to Christ (3:24) and if a person wanted to keep them unto the Lord (Rom14) as his own personal devotion, they could, but to keep them in a compulsory fashion, was now a return to bondage, and in the case of the gentile converts, was like a return to their old state (why else would they now be keeping Jewish laws in a compulsory fashion? Certainly not the good reason defended in Rom.14).

[ January 07, 2004, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

Bob,

Perhaps you overlooked my previous post.Here it is again.

Earlier Frank said:

To which Bob said:

But Romans 7 says no such thing.Instead it speaks of the commandments as bring "death" and "sin":

"And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me"(Ro.7:10,11).

The Commandments are described as "the law of sin and death".That is why Paul calls the Ten Commandments "the ministration of death":

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones..."(2Cor.3:7).

So there can be no doubt that "the law of sin and death" is in reference to the Ten Commandments.And Paul could not possibly make himself any plainer when he says that the Christian is "free" from the law of sin and death:

" For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh"(Ro.8:2,3).

The Christian is "free" from the demands of the Ten Commandments despite those who would attempt to place us under the bondage of the law.We are "free" from the law,and that is why Paul can tell the Christian that "all things are lawful unto me"(1Cor.6:12;10:23).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

Jerry,

Perhaps you missed this scripture:

1 John 2-3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


What are His commandments? Any way you answer, it goes back to the 10 Commandments.

Tam,

Working for Him