GODS 10 COMMANDMENTS

Colossians 2 - clearly teaches --

1. Paul is dealing explicitly with errors brought into the church (teachings of men - vs 22) errors that consist of man-made practices of judging others, man-made traditions - man-made religion. (vs 8,18,22)

2. Paul states that we stay in Christ by taking the same actions we took when we accepted Christ "as you have received Christ so walk in him" (vs 6) turning from sin and rebellion to Christ in repentance, surrender. Yielding to God's solution.

3. Col 2 points out that the problem is sin - we are all dead in sin and the solution is being made alive with him (vs 9-14) - accomplished by his substitutionary death for us. Christ pays our debt - consisting of "certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us" instead of nailing God's word, scripture, God's law - it is nailing our "certificate of debt" - the substitutionary sacrifices pays our debt.

4. Among the man-made errors listed - the error of judging is identified regarding the shadow-predictive-Sabbaths of Lev 23 - given as predictions of future events that were to be accomplished by the messiah on the cross. (dying for our sins). Vs 16-17

note: shadow Sabbaths are those that have their origin in the sacrificial system of animal sacrifices pointing to the death of Christ.

5. Paul does not condemn God's predictive-shadow-Sabbaths, he merely condemns the man-made error of judging Christians regarding them. Here he judges the judges who are condemning Christians based on something to do with the practice of observing these shadow Sabbaths. Judging others is already condemned pre-cross (matt 7) (vs 16-17)

6. Paul then condemns the error of worshipping angels, and fake visions, fake revelations. Here he judges those who observe these erroneous practices. (vs 18)

7. (vs 18-23) Paul is clearly condemning errors - fatal errors which negate salvation (defraud you of your reward - vs 18). These practices are not tolerated at all - judging others regarding their practice regarding shadow Sabbaths, practicing error in worship or false visions or made up religion of any kind.

Summary - extended

Colossians chapter two deals with abuses of God's word - that are abuses in any age not just the new testament.

Some try to make this into a "change from OT to NT" as if it was ever "right" to

"judge others" (Matt 7 Christ denies that this was right even before the cross or any change in dispensations).

It was never right to have a form of Godliness but lack its power.

It was always valid to

8 see to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.


According to Matt 7 -- In every age - it was right to

16 therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come;

Note: Paul is reproducing a familiar pattern regarding the annual feast days rather than "the Sabbath" it is "Sabbath{s}"

Colossians 2:16 - festival, new moon, Sabbath

1 Chronicles 23:31 - fixed festivals, new moons, Sabbaths
2 Chronicles 2:4 - appointed feasts, new moons, Sabbaths
2 Chronicles 8:13 - annual feasts, new moons, Sabbaths
2 Chronicles 31:3 - fixed festivals, new moons, Sabbaths
Nehemiah 10:33 - appointed times, new moon, Sabbaths
Isa 1:13-14 - appointed feasts, new moon, Sabbath
Ezekiel 45:17 - appointed feasts, new moons, Sabbaths
Ezek 46:1-11 - appointed feasts, new moons, Sabbath
Hosea 2:11 - festal assemblies, new moons, Sabbaths

In Lev 23 we see both annual feast days that are not Sabbaths (days of holy convocation) and those that are. (Passover and the feast of Unleavened bread being a good example).

With this in mind, Paul, incontrovertibly, pointing us to the annual feast days – and is telling us in Col 2:16 that judging others - is not allowed post cross even as we see it is not allowed pre-cross in matt 7 "do not judge".

Furthermore - he is identifying the "shadow Sabbaths" with the festival Sabbaths of Lev 23 - the annual Sabbath(s).

And Paul was saying this as one who not only kept the 10 commandments but also all the things of the law of Moses - Acts 21:20-26, 23:4-9, 24:14-18, 25:8,10-11, 26:20-23, 28:17

In fact he was not even offending in areas of "customs" let alone "laws of God"

And he went through great lengths to show His support EVEN for the ceremonial aspects of God’s Law –

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As Colossians 2 observes – and as the pre-cross statements of Christ show -- in every age it was lawful - and wise to avoid deception and judgmental practices.

Paul says
quote:

the idea is presented on this thread that these practices were "ok" in the OT but ended at the cross as no longer proper. But the context shows that Paul was condemning abuses that would have been condemned in any age.

Other texts (such as Hebrews 10) do show changes that took place in God's perfect purpose regarding his own laws (as the shadows - predictive laws - were fulfilled) but Colossians 2 deals instead - with abuses - not the transition between pre-cross and post-cross laws.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,

Jerry responds --

The unit of 10 - has never been "downsized".

In all of scripture - it is never called "the Nine Commandments" -- only "The Ten Commandments".

Feel free to look it up.

Imagine if you will going to God in the Isaiah 66 "New Earth" and when "From Sabbath to Sabbath ALL mankind comes before God to Worship" -- you are there to say "hey no need to keep doing this 7 day thing - please stop!" how will that doctrine be received? Surely God "knew what He was saying".

James 2 - "He who is guilty of one is guilty of all".


"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for mankind, and not mankind for the sabbath"(Mk.2:27).

Is it any wonder then "From One Sabbath to another shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship"!

The blessing made FOR mankind in the Garden when Mankind was MADE - does not end - it continues even into the New Earth.

Actually - the Law of God declares that BOTH JEW and GENTILE are under its domain - under its authority - and condemned by the Law of God as sinners.


Jerry said

#1. No such statement is found in all of scripture.

#2. In Romans 7 - Paul already states that the law is ALREADY spiritual - even though sinners rebell.

#3. Christ the Creator selected THE Seventh-day - HIS day. NOT simply a "pick your own day out of 7" as you speculate.

#4. All admit that Isaiah 66 is only pointing to the 7th day Sabbath - THE seventh day when it says "From Sabbath to Sabbath". The meaning is not ambigious - it is clear. Exegesis demands faithfulness to the text.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Do you cook, make any meals? How about a cup of coffee or tea? Or, do you get someone in your household to do it for you (which would amount to the same thing)?

 

Then you don't keep the Sabbath, and according to Old Testament Law (which keeping the Sabbath is), you would be stoned--just like the man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath Day. Using fuel for cooking is against the Sabbath. Cooking itself is against the Sabbath. All these things had to be done before hand, on the day before. That is why, in the wilderness wandering, they collected twice as much manna on the day before the Sabbath. Making coffee is a form of cooking. It takes heat, fuel, work--even if it is a little.
Sorry friend. You are a hypocrite that does not keep the Sabbath. Someone should take you out and stone you.
DHK

 

Downsville,

You are teaching that the Christian must establish his "own righteousness" despite the verses that say otherwise.You are a good example of the people who are referred to in the following verse:

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God"(Ro.10:3).

The Lord Jesus Christ died on the Cross so that sinners could be given the "righteousness of God":

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him"(2Cor.5:21).

Paul makes it plain that this "righteousness of God" is apart from any "law" keeping,and that it comes unto all who believe:

"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe"(Ro.3:21,22).

Even though Scripture reveals that the "righteousness of God" apart from law keeping comes upon all those "who believe",there are those who continue to insist that "believing" is not enough.Here is what Paul says in another place concerning this "righteousness of God":

"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faithfulness of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith"(Phil.3:9).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

I thought that was you who said it.

I guess you did'nt think to reconcile this passage with your error:

Mark 2: 27. And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

So if Jesus IS the Sabbath, according to this verse (which was spoken BY Jesus), Jesus was MADE for man.

SO you have twisted the Word of God to read that Jesus was MADE for man.

Which of course makes no sense with the verse that follows it:

28. Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Which according to your contortions, reads 'The Son of Man is Lord also of HIMSELF'!!!!

Are you sure you want it to say that?

Jesus= Sabbath
Sabbath= Made for man
Jesus= MADE for man

Hmmmmm

Because then this verse would also not make sense:

Acts 2: 36. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

God made Him Lord, but now according to you, He is Lord of Himself, (the Sabbath), which makes no sense!

Because Jesus is NOT Lord of Himself. Which is evident:

2 Cor 11:31. The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Even He has a God and Father, in OUR God and Father.

See what a terrible web you weave when you first practice to deceive?

You have now diminished Christ to the level of Satan, a being made by God, who is Lord of Himself.

-Kelly

 

I thought that was you who said it.

I guess you did'nt think to reconcile this passage with your error:

Mark 2: 27. And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

So if Jesus IS the Sabbath, according to this verse (which was spoken BY Jesus), Jesus was MADE for man.

SO you have twisted the Word of God to read that Jesus was MADE for man.

Which of course makes no sense with the verse that follows it:

28. Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Which according to your contortions, reads 'The Son of Man is Lord also of HIMSELF'!!!!

Are you sure you want it to say that?

Jesus= Sabbath
Sabbath= Made for man
Jesus= MADE for man

Hmmmmm

Because then this verse would also not make sense:

Acts 2: 36. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

God made Him Lord, but now according to you, He is Lord of Himself, (the Sabbath), which makes no sense!

Because Jesus is NOT Lord of Himself. Which is evident:

2 Cor 11:31. The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Even He has a God and Father, in OUR God and Father.

See what a terrible web you weave when you first practice to deceive?

You have now diminished Christ to the level of Satan, a being made by God, who is Lord of Himself.

-Kelly </font>[/QUOTE]You have twisted logic Kelly.
Your conclusion is wicked and blasphemous.

Two true statements do not necessarily make a true conclusion.

Example: Fact: Plants, when growing in only soil in water, gain weight.
Fact: Plants gain much more weight than is taken from the soil.
Conclusion: Weight gain from plants comes almost entirely from water. (a conclusion made by Jean Baptiste Van Helmont who lived in the 1600's)

The two statements were true, but the conclusion was false.
Van Helmont did not realize that plants use carbon dioxide and water to make sugar or food for itself to grow. Thus the weight gain is both from water and carbon dioxide (photosynthesis)
Even though his two statements were true, his conclusion was not. It was false.

Your two statements from Scripture are true. Your conclusion is false, even to the point of blasphemy.

Your conclusion is wrong and can be proven by the Bible. Jesus was not made, not created; but always was. You have spoken blasphemy in saying that He is a created being. This is your faulty reasoning not mine.
DHK

 

DHK,

Actually it's not a conclusion of mine at all.

It is YOUR faulty logic that is blasphemous, and it is YOU who is making Christ out to a created being by replacing the Sabbath that God created for man, with Christ.

There is no scripture to support your summation, and the bible clearly states that the Sabbath was made for man, so which is it?

You CANNOT have both!

Either you think Christ was created for man, or you must admit that there remains a SABBATH rest for the people of God.

You can't have both.

This should be interesting.

No matter how hard you try, you can't make it look like I'm saying Christ is created, so why do you keep trying?

It is YOUR faulty logic that is making that so, NOT me!

As I said before, you believe JESUS is YOUR Sabbath.

The Bible says the SABBATH was made for man!

So which is it?

You are diminishing Christ to the level of Satan, by calling Him your Sabbath, and by accepting that the Word of God is True that He is Lord of the Sabbath, you are saying He is Lord of HIMSELF, making Him like SATAN.

YOU are doing this in your express statements calling Christ YOUR Sabbath!

-Kelly

 

I believe the word "kindle" means to start. It is not that they didn't have heat; they could not use that heat to cook (make coffee), nor could they go out and gather fuel deliberately for cooking or otherwise. They had to have enough food and fuel for the Sabbath day, for the Sabbath was a day of rest.
DHK

 

Downsville,

I've always wondered why sincere Christians try to rationalize their insolence.

How about you?

DHK loves to pull up that verse about making a fire. That's his 'strawman', that time and again he pulls up.

Well, here you are, trying to make sense of it.

It's pretty simple.

The Sabbath stands for eternity, but the laws that were layed down by God to Moses don't.

When Jesus walked the earth He gave new meaning to the Sabbath, abolishing all the ordinances that made the Sabbath a burden.

Namely, the fire kindling rule.

There are TONS of Sabbath rules in the Books of the Law, given to Moses, simply because the stubborn Hebrews refused to obey when the Sabbath was first brought up (with the Manna).

When Jesus walked the earth He was corrected by the religious folks (hypocrites, not unlike DHK) who were constantly adding to the rules, and making the Sabbath hard on people instead of the JOY that God intended it to be.

He said it is LAWFUL to do GOOD on the Sabbath!

I'm certain that covers keeping your family from freezing to death!

God Bless, and Happy Sabbath!
-Kelly

 

This again is your blasphemous logic. I never replaced one for the other as you accused me of doing. I pointed that out in the last post.

Check Exodus 31 first. The sabbath was made as a sign for the nation of Israel, and for them alone, and their generations forever. It was never intended for any Gentile, or for the church. When Jesus said these words He had not yet died on the cross: this is pre-cross, and still people considered themselves under the Law. The principle to the Jews, being stated is that the Sabbath was made for man--that is for man's rest. It was not created that man should be a slave to the Sabbath, as the Pharisees were making it out to be.

I never said Christ was created for man; that is a blasphemous lie on your part. Here is what the Bible says:
Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
--The rest is not the Sabbath; the Sabbath is done away with. Jesus is a picture of that Sabbath which will ultimately be fulfilled in heaven when the believer will have complete rest. The Jews never did have rest in the Promise Land, not even on the Sabbath. Read the context.

No, Read Hebrews 4. The Bible says Jesus is our Sabbath. If you have a problem take it up with God. He gave us the Bibe.

It is both, obviously. Jesus is our Sabbath.
The Sabbath (in Jesus day and before) was made for man. Argue with Scripture not with me. Take the matter up with God. He said it, not me.

Your problem is taking two true statments and drawing a faulty conclusion from them, and in this case it is a blasphemous one. I have already demonstrated how you do this.

As you have said; so you have done. You have used faulty logic to come up with this blasphemous conclusion, which by now should be apparent to all.
DHK

 

Kelly,
Really, did he really do that? Where? I just can’t find it in any of his posts. In fact, if he did say that, then why did he accuse you of faulty reasoning and then go on to say …

It seems you have taken the two truths he wrote and drawn your own conclusion.

Just my two-cents’ worth.

 

quote:Kelly said --
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I said before, you believe JESUS is YOUR Sabbath.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DHK - that would be the "missing quote" from Hebrews 4 that you need to make your case stick.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Question:
When God makes the Sabbath in Gen 2:3 a Holy Day - that Christ the Creator said in Mark 2:27 was "made for mankind" - was God the Son - "His own Sabbath day"?

In Adam's perfection as he perfectly worshipped Christ the Creator - was Christ "His Sabbath" at the very start?

Possibly not. And maybe that is why Hebrews 4 does not actually make such a statement.

But still - having a day of worship - having God's chosen day - Christ the Creator's selected day - instead of a day of man's own choosing - can that possibly be a "bad thing"?

Given that the day Christ made for worship for "All mankind" even continued in the New earth (according to Isaiah 66) is "made FOR mankind" is
"mankind" suppose to "ignore it"?

Would it be wise to pretend that it was made for mankind, abolished today, then given back to mankind in the New Earth -- just so we can honor man-made tradition for a while?

Why go through that exercise? What is the "incentive"?

Is it to avoid the "trick law of God" that tricks you into the blessing made for "all mankind" in the OT and for "all mankind" in the New Earth - at least for a little while - while you live in the NT age?

And yet - these are the arguments that appear to be made in defense of man-made tradition.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Precept Ministries
DHK

 

#1. Is that your way of quoting anything in Hebrews 4? Recall that you claimed that Hebrews 4 contained the statement "Christ is our Sabbath" and if we did not believe that - argue with God since God authored that text right there in that chapter.

#2. Are you content to say that in Matt 11 - the Sabbath was abolished and Christ became the rest - before the Cross? Did rebellion against Christ the Creator's Holy day made for mankind begin before the cross at Christ's command BEFORE He had "fuliflled all things" according to you?

#3.Is this your way of speculating that in the New Earth - Christ will have decreased in importance and legalism will have risen to the point that once again as God says of the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

In Christ,

Bob

 

It seems people here do not understand Biblical typology. No one is saying Jesus is LITERALLY "the Sabbath". But He fulfills what the Sabbath was made for. The sabbath was made for man, and Christ CAME FOR man! Christ is Lord of the Sabbath, showing that HE is the one our walk and worship is centered on; not a day. He was correcting the Jews who took that Sabbath as their "identity" to ridiclous portions, and still missed God's will. This is why Paul spoke so much aboput the Law. Because with our fallen natures, that is what we do with it; keep it in the letter and miss the real intent of it. Simply removing the sacrifices and certain restrictions of the sabbath was not enough to solve the problem.

Look at it closer. "Entering the rest" was not something they DO, but rather a consequence of their belief or non-belief. It's "entered not in BECAUSE OF unbelief", NOT "were in a state of unbelief because they entered not in". The Jews this referred to may have literally rested on a 7th day, but still did not enter the true "rest".

It's obvious from the CONTEXT! The whole passage is not talking about Jesus (yet), it's talking about OT patriarchs. David is referenced as saying "today...", and then the writer goes on to mention someone before this, whom one may have thought had given rest BY THAT TIME, but didn't. Of course, Jesus existed back then, as God, but this is talking about an already human leader of Israel.

You have turned the chapter on its ear. Jesus is not the one who "did not really give them rest", so now the OT Sabbath is the true rest. The Sabbath of Israel is "the 7th day that had been spoken of" meaning it had been around previously, but did not give them true rest, but Jesus, as our "high priest" does.

Because that's the rest we must "labor" to enter! That's the rest one enters through "faith", and will not enter because of "unbelief". One can not believe (In Christ) and still rest on a 7th day, and they could be doing it right then, so why would he be telling us to labor to enter it? (obviously something that has not occurred yet). Because it is obvious that the final "rest" is the true goal, of which the earthly sabbath of creation shadowed.

Look again; it is "cease from his workS", not "work". It is talking about trying to be saved (enter the rest) through one's own "works", and the analogy is drawn to God's actual work. This is the spiritual intent the Sabbath points to. It too is a shadow of Christ and the salvation by faith He bring us.
If people looked at the contexts, and understood typology instead of twisting both scripture, and their opponents' statements to justify their own practices, all of this would be clear. But no, sound biblical exegesis is "psychobab", right?

God is free to command something for one age, then set it aside for one age, and then command it again later if He so chooses. Who are you to call that 'wishy-washy'? Keep in mind, this was written to Israel under the old Covenent, in which they would have been the means by which God established His Kingdom. Notice, the priest and levites mentioned in the passage, as well as new moons and "you and your seed" (is all of that still in effect then?).