Conditional Eternal Security or Conditional Salvation Security

Well .. I'm wondering why this Q&A is even necessary, in light of the simple Truth that is central to the ministry of Christ and the writings of Paul. You'd think that those gifted with spiritual discernment would have figured it all out, long ago.

Nonetheless, it is nice to read some intelligent Q&A for a change. Or is that 'nevertheless'??

 

The writer of this epistle does not add to his description of these Christian believers a disclaimer saying, “these Christians, however, were not actually born again but they merely fooled all of us into believing that they were.”

 

Hey, you're the one who thinks she is a chicken from Mars! I knew I recognized that writing style. Hi, I'm from Pluto, although it's cold here and I'm thinking of moving to Goofy.

 

Charles, Craigbythesea and drfuss,

The remaining context of Heb.6:11-20 is one of
"full assurance of hope UNTIL the End"! That Hope is the "anchor of our souls". vs.11,19.

There is no genuine "assurance" of hope if one
could "fall out of salvation". The context
reveals the initiative and efficacy of God's
role in the "assurance of eternal life".

The "practical" aspect is not found in a "play
on words"; but in the settled assurance of hope
based on God's promise ... just as it was in
the case of Abraham and will finally be realized
in the restoration of Abraham's natural seed as
inheritors of an eternal Kingdom where "God's will is done on earth as it is in heaven"!

Faith is the "requirement" for our eternal hope. But "obedience" to that faith in the keeping of
sacrifices, while being the outward requirement during the Millennium, will STILL not be the
determining factor of salvation. The final
criteria is the presence or absence of love toward the "least of Christ's brethers" whose repentance is real and again will not fall away into apostasy.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

There is certainly no question that these "people" in Heb 6:4-6 were definitely members of the church. The description is clearly intended to show that. But what of verses 7&8?

This hints at the parable of the sower (Luke 8:4-8). I think the best way to take this is to see those as never being true believers. For if they were how would they bear thorns?

 

Ok, here is my question...What difference does it make whether one believes that you can lose salvation or not? I think we can ALL agree one something, that if we truly love and trust Jesus we will HATE sin. I hate when I have a bad thought or slip up with the tounge and I ask for forgiveness. Everytime that happens do I think God is getting ready to smash me in his wrath or throw me into hell forever? No, I don't. Do I out of reverence and respect and love ask his forgiveness? Yes, because I am His creation and he loved me enough to save me. Now the thought of me losing my salvation, that'd make me scared to even walk outside with the thought that I might have an errant thought and then get hit by a car or have some heavy object fall on my head and I die then I go to hell? I think they are talking about a more deliberate disobedience..like "this stuff jesus said doesn't float my boat, i'm gonna be a hindu or WOW since I'm saved I'm going to heaven no matter what I'm gonna have my fun and tip the preacher too!" NO, people like that will not go to heaven, IMO. If one believes that salvation could be lost so easily, then what would be the point of getting saved in the first place, if Jesus won't hold you and protect you? Personally, I'd be better off thinking, OK, Jesus is in control, what ccan I do to glorify him today, without stressing over every single little flitter that runs through my head. And if one wants to repent ever single time they have an errant thought then let them do it. I guess by this whole uneducated rambling mess I'm posting, that I'm saying that no one will ever agree on this so what's the use of arguing it? I know all of you on this thread are definatly more learned in the Bible than I am, so please be merciful.

 

Dustin,

Good point.

I can tell that I am a changed person since salvation. The Spirit of God drew me to Christ. And I believe that same Spirit will guard and keep me.

I do not believe that I would have known my need for salvation without the Spirit. Thus the indwelling of the Spirit is what has changed me! To see this salvation as something I could lose is to minimize the significance of it, since it was the Spirit who drew me and not the other way around!

I think a good reading of Rom 5-8 yields similar perspective.

 

Dustin ol’ chap,

I heartily agree with much of what you said here, but theologians who teach conditional security do not teach that a young man like yourself can step out of the house and find himself eternally separated from God just because he because he forgot to pray first. But we find in the New Testament no shortage of warnings to Christians who are truly saved of the possibility of their falling from grace and being eternally damned to the fires of hell if they willfully and deliberately forsake their faith in and their obedience to Christ. I do not believe that these warning would be in the New Testament if God did not believe that it is important for them to be there.

Here are some of the verses that are frequently put forth to defend the doctrine of conditional security:

Matt. 13:20. "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21. yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.

Matt. 24:1. Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.
2. And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."
3. As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
4. And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you.
5. "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.
6. "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.
7. "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.
8. "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
9. "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10. "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11. "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12. "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13. "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Matt. 25:14. "For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them.
15. "To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.
16. "Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.
17. "In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.
18. "But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.
19. "Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them.
20. "The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.'
21. "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
22. "Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.'
23. "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
24. "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
25. 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'
26. "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
27. 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
28. 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
29. "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
30. "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mark 4:16. "In a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy;
17. and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.

Mark 13. "You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Luke 8:13. "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

John 15:5. "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7. "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8. "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
9. "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
10. "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
11. "These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

1 Cor. 9:27. but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

1 Cor. 10:11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

Gal. 5:1. It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2. Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Phil. 2:15. so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
16. holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.

Col. 1:21. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

2 Thes. 2:3. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4. who opposes and exalts himself above every so- called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6. And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9. that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10. and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12. in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

1 Tim. 4:1. But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
2. by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
3. men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

1 Tim. 4:16. Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

2 Tim 4:1. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2. preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4. and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

Heb. 3:12. Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Heb. 10:26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

James 5:19. My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
20. let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

2 Pet. 2:1. But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3. and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
5. and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6. and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
7. and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men
8. (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds),
9. then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
10. and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,
11. whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord.
12. But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
13. suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
14. having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
15. forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16. but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
17. These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
18. For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19. promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20. For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

2 Pet. 3:14. Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15. and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16. as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
18. but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

1 John 5:16. If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

Jude 1:4. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5. Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
6. And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7. just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
8. Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
9. But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
10. But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
11. Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
12. These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;
13. wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
14. It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
15. to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
16. These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.
Keep Yourselves in the Love of God
17. But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,
18. that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts."
19. These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly- minded, devoid of the Spirit.
20. But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21. keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

Rev. 3:5. 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

(All Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995)

 

This hints at the parable of the sower (Luke 8:4-8). I think the best way to take this is to see those as never being true believers. For if they were how would they bear thorns? </font>[/QUOTE]The only reason that I know of for such an interpretation, since neither of these passages says anything at all about the permanence of the born-again state, is the pre-supposition that the born-again state is irreversible—a concept that is foreign to the New Testament and to the Church up to the 16th century. And we can be quite certain from the study of the history of the interpretation of the New Testament that this concept was first conceived in response to a new, 16th century concept of the sovereignty of God.

 

The work that the Holy Spirit has done in your life has been done and nothing can change the fact that the work has been done. However, very many Christian men find themselves succumbing to a sin that so easily besets them. The Holy Spirit then convicts them afresh of the wrong of it, they repent, and they live for a while enjoying the change that the Holy Spirit has wrought in them. But, alas! Only days later they find themselves back where they were before, committing the same sin. Had the Holy Spirit really done a work in their lives?—yes He had. Was the effect of that work of such permanence as to eliminate the possibility of their succumbing again to the temptation to commit that sin? No, it was not.

Most unfortunately, some men, in whom the Holy Spirit had worked a marvelous and miraculous transformation of character and behavior subsequent to their initial justification, have been known to revert back to their former state of depravity, if not to an even worse state of depravity.

Heb. 10:26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (NASB, 1995)

 

Reading all that make me truly question my salvation...honestly, it really does. Maybe it's a blessing, I don't know. But either way, thanks.


Dustin

 

I was raised catholic and believed that "salvation" could be lost. It was not until I began to read and study that I realized that a very good case can be made that it cannot.

 

I don't believe that there is any question that you are saved and secure in Jesus!

 

I have no doubts about Jesus, just myself.

 

Jesus died for your sins because He loves you. I believe that you love Him and that it is the desire of your heart to serve Him, so what do you doubt about yourself? We are saved by faith in Christ; not by faith in ourselves.

 

Jesus died for your sins because He loves you. I believe that you love Him and that it is the desire of your heart to serve Him, so what do you doubt about yourself? We are saved by faith in Christ; not by faith in ourselves.

</font>[/QUOTE]Well stated.

 

Yes, it doesn't makes sense to read hebrews 10 and not read 11 also.

[ March 28, 2006, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: Dustin ]

 

I was raised catholic and believed that "salvation" could be lost. It was not until I began to read and study that I realized that a very good case can be made that it cannot. </font>[/QUOTE]I grew up as an agnostic and did not believe in either Jesus or salvation. It was not until I had a personal encounter with Jesus and began to read the Bible that the doctrine of salvation became clear to me and I realized that the most precious gift that God could give was mine and that I was free to do with it as I chose—to keep it and cherish it unto eternal life, or give it back unto eternal damnation.

I don’t know if Dustin is just trying to make the point that the doctrine of eternal security can, in some extreme circumstances, make one doubt his salvation to argue his point, or if he may possibly have some doubts, but please join me in prayer for him.

 

CBTS, I'm not trying to prove a point, I do have doubts (sometimes), and I do thank God for your prayers, I need them. It's not at all I don't trust the Lord at His word, it's all this theology. There's 65 bajillion ways to interpret the Bible, but truly only one correct way. Many on this board have been Christians for decades, and I'm a newborn compared to that. Even Paul, the greatest Christian ever arguably, had to study under the other disciples for 15 years i think the scriptures say before he went on his missions. When I read all these things I WANT to understand but sometimes it's hard. And on top of that at the beginning of my redeication I was attending a pentecostal church and was confused by oneness and speaking in tounges and all i thought I wasn't saved. And at this point I want to be SURE that I'm SAVED and rightly dividing and understanding the Word so that if someone has a question about my faith or I'm witnessing that I won't be misleading another soul.