Catholic Question: Can One Find Salvation Without the Sacraments?

Hi DHK,

You wrote, "These were temporary gifts given to the church until the canon of Scripture was completed"

It's interesting that the Church has these same gifts today, yet the canon of Scripture is completed.

So, you're telling me:

(1) The Early Christians learned about the Trinity by means of extraordinary charismatic gifts?

(2) The Charismatic gifts of 1 Cor 12-14 are no longer operative?

Interesting.

God bless,

Carson

 

Surely you have read some of the many threads here on the speaking in tongues movement, or the Charismatic movement. No, I don't believe the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in 1Cor.12 are for today. Those gifts were supernatural gifts given for a special time in history. Tongues is the most widely talked about, abused, gift there ever was--even in the Corinthian church. Paul spent an entire chapter (chapter 14) explaining why prophecy was a better gift to seek after, and then setting down stipulations under which the Corinthians could speak in tongues. No Charismatic follows those stipulations today. Not one. If you wish to have a separate discussion on tongues maybe we should start another thread on tongues once again. Already there has been much posted on this subject. Tongues of today is pure gibberish. Tongues of the first century were known languages, but unknown to the one speaking them, and thus requiring an interpreter. They are not for today.
DHK

 

Good gravy, Carson! Paul's letter to Timothy WAS Scripture! What was entrusted to Timothy was written in other letters, such as Romans, which Peter himself defined as Scripture. We went straight from eyewitnesses to Scripture with no need for a Catholic church or their rites!

 

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So you have no need for Baptism or marriage vows? Those are Sacraments that most Christians accept.

LaRae

 

Hi DHK,

You wrote, "Tongues of today is pure gibberish."

That's an interesting stand you take. As I write this post, my roommate is over on the couch praising in tongues. No, I'm not kidding. And, last night, I was at a Festival of Praise where one young lady spoke in tongues while another interpreted for the 1500 Catholic believers. The interpreter is a friend of mine - a young lady who is not one to speak in front of crowds - she is very timid. There were also words of prophecy, people being slain in the Spirit, etc.

Your skepticism doesn't move me.

Hi Helen,

You wrote, "Good gravy, Carson! Paul's letter to Timothy WAS Scripture!"

Yes, and? That is why I quote from the epistle; because you consider it authoritative.

You also wrote, "What was entrusted to Timothy was written in other letters, such as Romans"

Of course part of the Catholic faith is found in other New Testament writings. But, how do you know that we find the entire deposit in these writings? (much less, know how to interpret them correctly - I have taken two graduate courses on Romans {and another one this upcoming summer} and I can tell you that my interpretation is very different than yours) You don't. You're superimposing your Protestant tradition over 1 Tim 6:20 in order to downplay apostolic succession and tradition.

Paul entrusted the faith to Timothy and commanded Timothy to guard what Paul entrusted to him. He does not hand Timothy the epistle to the Romans and suggest that he is to keep the epistle from being destroyed. He verbally communicates revelation to his disciple and Timothy is to keep it intact and teach it to others. This is how the Church has operated for 2,000 years; Protestantism has reduced revelation to the lowest common demoninator: those epistles and writings perpetuated and singled out by the Catholic Church as canonical.

Bless you,

Carson

[ November 10, 2002, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Carson --

GO STUDY!!!

They aren't listening and your education is more important!!

Brother Ed

 

They are not needed for salvation, no. Baptism is needed for obedience and marriage vows are needed for marriage, but neither are needed for salvation.

Christ Jesus is everything. He is all any of us NEED.

 

Carson, does salvation lie in the church or Jesus Christ?

 

Someone mentioned Pope Leo XIII. Here is a quote from him.

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty." --POPE LEO XIII

He is a quote from Lucifer.

"...I will be like the most High."
LUCIFER, ISAIAH 14:14

Questions anyone?

 

In which language did your room-mate speak in? What language did the young lady speak in, and how do you know that the interpretation was correct? Show me a case of anyone slain in the spirit in the Bible. All the revelation that we need is complete; it is in the Bible, God's Word. Those claiming to have a "word of prophecy" today are nothing less than false prophets, for there are no new prophecies given today. Prophecies, tongues, and words of knowledge, all have ceased according to the Word of God. The word for "tongues" means "languages."

Now consider: 1Cor.14:21,22
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Paul refers to an Old Testament passage in Isaiah. "In the law it is written," and quotes from it. "With men of other lips will I speak to this people." Who does "this people" refer to? It refers to the Jews. It is an Old Testament passage. The gift of tongues was a gift that would be used to authenticate the gospel message for the Jewish nation. That is what Paul is saying in verse 21.
Now he goes on to say in verse 22: "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not." Tongues are a sign to the unbeliever, not for the believer. Paul makes that much clear. Taken in its proper context with verse 21 you understand that the gift of tongues is a sign specifically for the unbelieving Jew of the first century. If your friends have no unbelieving Jews present, there is no purpose for them to speak in tongues. There would be no purpose any way because the Word of God was complete at the end of the first century. Anyone who speaks in tongues today has not read or understood 1 Corinthians chapter 14
DHK

 

They are not needed for salvation, no. Baptism is needed for obedience and marriage vows are needed for marriage, but neither are needed for salvation.

Christ Jesus is everything. He is all any of us NEED.</font>[/QUOTE]Hmmmm so what about the part in the Bible that says Baptism is required? Not just for obedience. Marriage vows are required (if one doesn't want to live in a state of sin, which does effect salvation).

LaRae

 

(Eph 5:23 NIV) For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, HIS BODY, of which he is the Savior.

Sorry, the above quotes sound like they've come directly from a Jack Chick comic-book. I can understand disagreements with Catholic doctrine, but I cannot stomach this kind of bigotry and hate.

[ November 11, 2002, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Jude ]

 

Hi Homebound,

Carson, does salvation lie in the church or Jesus Christ?

That's like asking, does salvation lie in Jesus or in Christ? The Church is the Incarnation extended through time. It is the Mystical Body of Christ.

Bless you,

Carson

 

Carson, what the Catholic church has been involved in and responsible for through the last 1600 years are the antithesis of what Jesus Christ stood for and taught. There is no way, ever, that the RCC is His body. That is ascribing something bloody, immoral, money-grubbing, politically motivated, and man-made to God Himself.

No way.

 

Hi Helen,

You commented, "Carson, what the Catholic church has been involved in and responsible for through the last 1600 years are the antithesis of what Jesus Christ stood for and taught."

The Church's purpose is to give infallible truth and perfect life to the human race through her preaching and sacraments. And, she herself is the receiver of this truth and life at the same time. She herself is in need of the very truth and life that she distributes because she is full of fallible sinners.

I'm sure that you agree with me that every Christian remains a sinner in one way or another. I'm also sure that you agree with me that every Christian is a part of "the Church". So, it should not scandalize you when Christians commit sin, esp. members of the Catholic Church.

Christ is the one who appointed 12 apostles (one of whom betrayed Christ, symbolic of those in the Magisterium who betray him who they represent) and Saul. Christ new full well that he was appointing peccable men - sinners. He started it.

The scandal started by Jesus Christ continues within his Church. Christ crucified served a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles. How much more would his Church, who is identified with her Saviour?

The Church has also raised up the most incredible saints throughout her history; have you read of any of their lives? St. Francis of Assisi, for example?

Your brother in Christ,

Carson

[ November 11, 2002, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Helen,

You also wrote, "That is ascribing something bloody, immoral, money-grubbing, politically motivated, and man-made to God Himself."

I'm a member of Christ's Body. Are you saying that I'm bloody, immoral, money-grubbing, politically motived, and man-made? I do have residual sinfulness residing within me; I am at times greedy; at times I am immoral; at times I am politically motivated. I'm a sinner and so is the rest of the Catholic Church.

I'm just as much "Catholic Church" as the pope is because the Church is made up of her members. In fact, we are not fully what we are to be until we are perfectly cleansed in Heaven. The Catholic Church is most "Catholic Church" as Church Triumphant around the throne of the Lamb.

Bless you,

Carson

 

Hi Tuor,

There was a time when they were considered distinct denominations, just as Protestants and Catholics are different.

No, there was not. The difference between believing Protestants and believing Catholics is paramount compared to schisms. The Sacraments are essential to the composition of the Church. The Catholic Church, united around the Chair of St. Peter, has the fullness of truth. Elements of the Church do exist outside of her visible structure, and these elements do provide for sanctification. Those who are sanctified by these elements properly belonging to the Church (i.e. baptism) outside of her visible structure are imperfectly united with the Catholic Church and really are "Catholic" (but only imperfectly) and have salvation.

It is then a matter of judgement given only to the Judge as to how guilty such an individual is for remaining outside of the visible confines of the Church while retaining partial communion with her. This is a judgment that I nor any other human can make.

If I remember correctly the Eastern and Western Popes excommunicated each other. If this is true, then one of the two must be a heretic branch.

There have never been two popes ontologically. There have been two claimants (actually, four at one time) to the papacy, but only one is actually the successor of St. Peter.

God bless,

Carson

[ November 11, 2002, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]