Can we go to heaven yet?

Kelly:

My question was where are the souls “sleeping” with the Trade Center victims if people believe in "soul sleep"? It seems that you don’t believe then in “soul sleep”, but death. So why call it "soul sleep"?

God is spirit, a purely spiritual substance, and does not breathe. A spirit does not breathe for it has no lungs. The term breath of God is an expression or human way of putting things for us to understand. Christ clearly shows the difference between the material body and a spiritual soul when He said, “Handle and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me to have.” Lk 24:39 The soul is a spirit, and is called the "breath of God" because it is created by God with a spiritual or breath-like nature.

So, no real “soul sleep” they just cease to exist if their body is in thousands of pieces or vaporized? God gets his breath back. We all have the same soul it seems you are saying, if we all have just God’s breath. I guess you don’t believe the intellect and freewill are elements of our soul.

But I do “have” a soul and it can not die because not being material it can not be destroyed or fall to pieces like matter. God Himself knit my soul into my little body in my mother’s womb. I have a very different soul than you or anyone else. My soul is not the same as yours. I am an individual with an intellect and freewill which are part of my soul and not my body.

It seems you do not believe in soul sleep but death of the person who “is a soul”. In the past when I have discussed Holy Scripture with you it was useless because you would count the words of Scripture to decide if you would accept it or not. Thomas calling Jesus Christ “My Lord and My God”, were only five words to you, so meaningless because you could count some other phrase that has more words.

So I see no point trying in trying to show you what Scripture says about this, and without your accepting the teaching authority of the Church Jesus Christ established, your ideas and my ideas are just that....ideas. These are you own and others private interpretation of Holy Scripture, which you feel you can argue against any other persons private interpretation of Holy Scripture.

However the truth is out there... the "pillar and foundation of truth"...the church... has the correct interpretation of what God has revealed.

God Bless

 

Kelly:

Psalm 139:
13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.


The soul is your "inmost being" which God Himself knits together in your mother's womb.
The body is the frame He made in the secret place. God makes the soul and He makes the body.

This is why my soul is different than your soul. The soul is not the breath of God or all would have the same soul. We are called a living soul because we are named after the superior element of our being....the soul. We are not bodies walking around with the same breath of God animating us until we die.

We are exactly what Psalm 139 says we are... a created body (the frame), and a created soul (our innermost being) knit together by God Himself in our mother's womb.

God Bless

 

This is where most of us would disagree with you.
I do not believe that the spirit of Saddam Hussein, Osama ben Laden, or Stalin or Hitler will or have gone to God at death. I believe they go straight to Hell.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]That is one of the problems in your model. The text that actually says "the spirit of mankind returns to God who gave it" does not distinguish between "saints and the lost". It is a statement about all mankind.

However - as noted in Matt 22 - "God is not the God of the Dead but of the Living" --- proving the resurrection as the only way that can be true.

So given that - the wicked that go back to God as well as the righteous - are not "being rewarded" - rather the wicked will be raised - and then cast into hell as Matt 10 states "Having both soul AND body destroyed in hell fire" Matt 10:28.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Are you really saying the King James Version is not saying the same thing?


For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully [and] wonderfully made: marvellous [are] thy works; and [that] my soul knoweth right well.

My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them.

How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! Psalms 139:17


I am afraid the King James Version is saying the same thing. God did not breathe His breath here, he formed the body and the soul the substance of the person in the mother’s womb. The King James Version also is saying “my” soul knoweth right well…..hey I have a soul!!!! I am not a soul.

God Bless

 

Kelly, you say:

The King James Version has 137 references to “my soul”. It is part of me, knit by God in my mother's womb, but it is not the whole me. I am also a body also made by God in my mother's womb . I have a soul. I am not a soul.


Psalms 6:4
Return, O LORD, deliver my soul : oh save me for thy mercies' sake.

Psalms 7:2
Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending [it] in pieces, while [there is] none to deliver.

Psalms 7:5
Let the enemy persecute my soul , and take [it]; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.

Psalms 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalms 17:13
Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, [which is] thy sword:

Psalms 22:20
Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

Psalms 23:3
He restoreth my soul : he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Psalms 25:1
Unto thee, O LORD, do I lift up my soul .

Psalms 25:20
O keep my soul , and deliver me: let me not be ashamed; for I put my trust in thee.

Psalms 26:9
Gather not my soul with sinners, nor my life with bloody men:

Psalms 30:3
O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

Psalms 31:7
I will be glad and rejoice in thy mercy: for thou hast considered my trouble; thou hast known my soul in adversities;

Psalms 31:9
Have mercy upon me, O LORD, for I am in trouble: mine eye is consumed with grief, [yea], my soul and my belly .

There are many many more.

God Bless

 

Kelly:

You didn’t like what the other Bible says so I went with the KJV. It means the same. It is not the physical organ the kidney it is the “innermost parts of man”. David says “my soul” here. The King James Version uses "my soul" about 130 times where you would prefer it to say "me" or "I".

God Bless

 

Kelly,

just curious, and I haven't read all the thread...just a question? Are you saying that the soul and the body are one and the same?

If so how would you explain 1 Thes. 5:3?
"23": And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, just a question...I don't really want to get into debate...just curious...

 

In Luke 16:20-31, the Bible says, And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21  And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22  And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23  And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24  And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25  But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26  And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27  Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28  For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29  Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30  And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31  And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The text teaches us the following:
1. Men know of their existence upon physical death. Vs. 22,23.
2. Men are either comforted or tormented in that existence. Vs. 22,23.
3. Men who are being tormented have no mercy, or rest from their torment. vs.24.
4. Men who are in paradise are comnforted. vs. 22.
5. Men being comforted and tormented may not change their condition. vs.25,26.
6. Abraham, a faithful servant of God, is in a place of comfort. vs.22, 25.
7. Abraham knows of the condition of those being tormented. vs. 25
8. Lazarus and the Rich Man knew the conditon of those with Abraham and those in torment vs.23 24,28.
9. The word of God is to persuade men to live righteously unto death, not miraculous power. vs. 31.

Note: Jesus said in Mat. 8:11,And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

The text teaches us that men know of their existence upon physical death. They are cognizant of either comfort or torment. This condition is not alterable upon death. It is our response to that which is written that will determine our eternal condition by the mercies of God in Christ.

The text also indicates by the word Hades, the place of departed spirits, consists of paradise and torment. However, according to Jesus in Mat. 8:11, Abraham and many others have the blessing of comfort upon death and ultimately the kingdom of heaven. Luke 16:22,25, Mat. 8:11.

[ July 17, 2003, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Frank ]

 

Kelly,

Reins are not kidney’s. The Hebrews used this word to mean “innermost parts of man” in the spiritual sense. From the King James Dictionary: Reins : Innermost parts of man. “Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and REINS.” (Psalm 7:9)

When the bible talks about “kidney” or “bowel” or the “eyes of your heart”, it is describing not physical organs but spiritual faculties. These spiritual faculties which are faculties of the soul are not given to the animals. Dogs, cats, fish, do not have the same kind of soul as man. Animals were not created in the image and likeness of God. Jellyfish do not have “reins” in the sense we do… “kidneys” , but they do have “innermost parts” a simple soul not made in the image and likeness of God. They have a soul, but not an immortal soul. They have the “breath of life” and in a sense are a “living soul”, but they are not only a “living soul”…..they are mostly a physical body.

Man however can be called a “living soul” because he is much more than his physical body, His soul is made in the image and likeness of God. Dogs, cats, jellyfish don’t have will and the intellect which are faculties of the soul. They are incapable of having in their soul faith, hope, or charity all virtues of the soul given by grace.

Because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross, our bodies can become temples of the Holy Spirit….this is possible because God gave us a different soul than a cat or dog…. I can be called a “living soul” because I “have a soul” that is much more than the animals. …….. God made me in His image and likeness.

Man can be absent from the body, but a jellyfish can not. Man has been given a body and soul made in the image and likeness of God so that we may know, love, and serve Him in this world and the next. Dogs, and cats, and jellyfish have the gift of life, the breath of God, but not a soul made in the image and likeness of God.

God Bless

 

Kelly:

It equates to the basic fundamental elements of the soul___ our spiritual qualities and faculties which do not belong to the animals. I prefer the NIV translation of this passage because it is in the vernacular of the people. It is the NIV translation that the anti-abortionists use to save babies in the womb from abortion. A good translation of this passage is important, it saves lives. For myself I prefer the Duay Reims Bible, which is an older English translation than the King James Verson. But King James Version is saying the same thing as the other translations.

My response is that you don't seem to believe the translations of the King James Version, or the NIV, or any other translation. You seem to need to ignore that the translations repeatedly use the term “my soul”, rather than “me” or "I".

You seem to be following a religion based on the misunderstanding of a few passages ….by chosing certain words and putting them back into Hebrew than reading it in the context of english, but not reading the whole chapter in context.

You need to read Genesis, where God creates man in His own image and likeness, and importantly, you need to read Eclesiastes. You don’t seem to understand what the book is talking about. You seem to be taking a few passages out of context and building a religion around a misunderstanding. If you are willing to read it, I would be willing to discuss it with you.

God Bless

 

This is where most of us would disagree with you.
I do not believe that the spirit of Saddam Hussein, Osama ben Laden, or Stalin or Hitler will or have gone to God at death. I believe they go straight to Hell.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]That is one of the problems in your model. The text that actually says "the spirit of mankind returns to God who gave it" does not distinguish between "saints and the lost". It is a statement about all mankind.

However - as noted in Matt 22 - "God is not the God of the Dead but of the Living" --- proving the resurrection as the only way that can be true.

So given that - the wicked that go back to God as well as the righteous - are not "being rewarded" - rather the wicked will be raised - and then cast into hell as Matt 10 states "Having both soul AND body destroyed in hell fire" Matt 10:28.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Your argument hinges on just one verse"

Eccl.12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Given the prominence of this verse in your theology, you fail to realize that you have taken it completely it out of its contest. Read carefully the first seven verses of chapter 12. Solomon is describing the aging of an old man and his final death. He is looking at from a purely humanistic point of view, i.e., from man's point of view. What does man see when he sees death? This is not a theological treatise on the soul and the spirit at the time of death. This is an outward description of what a man sees at the time of death of a loved one. All throughout the language is very figurative.

3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,

"keepers of the house" the hands and arms which guard the body.
"strong men shall bow themselves" Legs and knees shall no longer be the strongest members of the body, or stand upright.
"grinders shall cease" teethe shall fall out
"windows shall be darkened" vision shall be diminished.
Solomon is describing what he sees from man's point of vies. It is descriptive and figurative. You cannot use verse seven to hinge your entire concept of soul sleep on. For it is more of a philosophical statement of what Solomon is stating as he sees what man sees when he looks upon a dying man. He is speaking in figurative language. You have taken this verse out of context and built a false theology around it. The spirit of all mankind does not return to God.
The saved will go to Heaven, and the unsaved will go to Hell.

This is amply illustrated by the story that Jesus tells on the rich man and Lazarus.
DHK

 

DHK:

I have to agree with DHK here. Atheist's like to say: "I believe in the bible, it says to eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow may never come. " This is a similar misunderstanding of a very beautiful book of the bible.

God Bless

 

Kelly, you ask:

Yes, because Jesus Christ redeemed us. When people died in the Old Testament it says they would be “gathered to his people.” The soul or spirit waited with the other souls for the coming of the Messiah. When we believe in the Gospel and are baptized we are saved. If we endure to the end, when we die and are absent from our body, we are judged by Jesus Christ and join the great cloud of witnesses.

Genesis 25:8
Abraham breathed his last and died in a ripe old age, an old man and satisfied with life; and he was gathered to his people .

Genesis 25:17
These are the years of the life of Ishmael, one hundred and thirty-seven years; and he breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his people.

Genesis 35:29
Isaac breathed his last and died and was gathered to his people , an old man of ripe age; and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

Genesis 49:33
When Jacob finished charging his sons, he drew his feet into the bed and breathed his last, and was gathered to his people .

Numbers 20:24
"Aaron will be gathered to his people ; for he shall not enter the land which I have given to the sons of Israel, because you rebelled against My command at the waters of Meribah.

Deuteronomy 32:50
" Then die on the mountain where you ascend, and be gathered to your people, as Aaron your brother died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people ,

Animals and people have different kinds of souls. Man is made in the image and likeness of God. This means we are given an immortal soul. This is why our Redemption was so important.

God Bless

 

Eccl.12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


This is the only text in the Bible that explicitly states that our spirit goes to God at death - in a general sense.

We see NT examples of individuals asking that THEIR spirit go to God at death (see Acts 7:59-60) prior to the "Person" falling "asleep" as the text says - explicitly.

But Eccl 12 is the only place that mentions spirit and states the matter in an unqualified way - ALL mankind - the spirit of all mankind going to heaven at death is an even Stronger affirmation of the act of God - than the same claim for ONE person.

Actually it is. And it is from the wisest of all Bible authors.

It starts with the spiritual context - and retains it.

Notice.

12:1 "Remember Your CREATOR in the days of your youth".

The priority of the God-first view of Eccl 12 is explicit in the text.

Notice also in vs 5 - instead of limiting the example to "one old man who dies" - it is "For mankind goes to his Eternal home" 12:5. Directly contradicting the notion that this does not deal with all mankind and does not deal with the subject of our eternal destiny and does not deal with the subject of death and exactly what happens.

Notice again vs 6-7 - where the priority of God in the believer's life is again called into view
Remember Him before the silver cord is broken...THEN the DUST will RETURN to the Earth and the spirit will Return to God who Gave it" (God formed man of the DUST of the earth Gen 2:7). And God Himself states "For You are Dust and to Dust you shall return". Gen 3:19 And God "is not speaking as a human" nor is He just talking about one "old man".

The spirit that returns "to God who gave it" is applicable to the "all mankind" context of vs 5.

This is open acknowledgement of God as the source of life AND of God's role in preserving our being - after death. Hardly a "human-only-view".

The Vanity mentioned in this chapter has to do with the striving after wind in this life that chooses NOT to "remember the Creator in the days of your youth" - and Solomon wisely condemns that behavior.

Vs 15 "The Conclusion is - Fear God and keep His commandments...God will bring Every act into Judgment" (Now compare that to Rev 14:6-7)

"Fear God and Give glory to Him for the hour of His Judgment has come". Rev 14:6-7.


This same view of death followed by Judgment is maintained in the NT.

In Hebrews 9 we find the teaching For it is appointed unto man ONCE to die and THEN comes the judgment” – the advice that Solomon gives under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit – in conclusion to this book – is to tell us to seek God before we die.

The fact that Solomon uses symbols for the various bodily functions that fail as one approaches death - does nothing to negate the scope (all mankind) or the spiritual context (your Creator, the spirit returning to God, Fear God, View His future judgment etc).

In Christ,

Bob