Can we go to heaven yet?

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Coincidence?

I've read the entire Bible 3 times. I am working on my 4th time around right now.

Do you honestly think that I have just taken someone's word for what I believe, and didn't study it out on my own?

Do you think I am cutting and pasting the comments that I post from some SDA website?

I have studied this out, in great depth, have you?

It is truth.

You are blinded by your traditions.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Come into the light.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Ok, so would you be so kind as to tell me WHERE this 'Great Cloud of Witnesses' is? Also, which phase of the Judgment takes place at the moment of death? Could you provide Scripture for that assertion?

You posted passages that state that the dead are 'gathered to their people'. Your interpretation is based on Catholic tradition, meaning, you think that means 'paradise' or Hades. Right? Here is what the BIBLE says about where 'their people' are gathered.

Moses:
Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

God talking to David:
2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

Bathsheba talking to David:
1Ki 1:21 Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.

David:
Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

David is sleeping with his fathers. Who are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who you made mention of in your proofs who 'were gathered to their people'. David was gathered to his people too! He is sleeping with his fathers.

Since you seem unsatisfied with my use of Ecclesiastes, I will provide others. David and Job agreed as well.

Job 27:3 (KJV)
3All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
Job 27:4 My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit.

Job, undoubtably a man of God. He states that the breath that is in him is the spirit of God, in his NOSTRILS no doubt! Right in the midst of a promise that his tongue will not speak deceit, so we KNOW that what he just said is TRUE.

Psalm 146:3 (KJV)
3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

His breath (ruwach) 'goes forth', and HE returns to the earth. Funny thing to say, 'dead people aren't thinking', don't you think?. So which part of your immortal soul would you say 'thinks'? David seems to think for some reason that when he dies he won't think anymore.

Was he just following a religion too?

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Kathryn,

You skipped this part:

And this:

I'll reply to your other post when you completely respond to mine.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Didn't say that. It said HE. It DID NOT say, 'just his body'.

Interesting still, it DOES NOT SAY THAT. It said DAVID, in both places, was gathered to his people (who are dead) and fell on sleep, and laid to his fathers (who are dead). In neither instance did it say 'his body was laid' or that his 'soul was gathered'. It said DAVID.

Oh, but he is. The common grave 'hell' is ONE place. It is not 4 billion hells/ graves that Jesus is going to cast into the lake of fire but ONE hell/ grave.

Could you please, again, provide the chapter and verse in Genesis that states we were made in the image of God, with an immortal soul? And also address the question- Is God an immortal soul?

Again, could you show chapter and verse for that assertion, because the Bible clearly states that there are only two kinds of bodies, earthy and heavenly. We are earthy, being of the earth, and angels and one day glorified saints are heavenly. We don't have both. You can't be both.

That's a stretch. The Bible does not say ANYWHERE that our 'soul can be absent from our body'. If you disagree, prove it.

Ok, which 'judgment' happens at death? Also, if we are judged individually at death, what would the purpose be of a 'final' judgment?

Chapter and verse.

Sorry, but that is an out and out lie, in direct contradiction to the Bible. We are ALL dust, and to dust we will return. We are ALL a combination of dust and breath, and just like animals at death, our bodies decompose, return to dust and the breath that animated us, goes back to God who gave it. It doesn't go to heaven. God is omnipresent, and it goes back or is aborbed back into God right here on earth.

Do you have any idea how diluded you make yourself appear when you make such proud statements about men? It would be much different if these so called 'truths' that you profess were given to you personally by the Apostles, but they weren't and you are trusting in the traditions of MEN rather than learning from God's Word, and the guidance of the Spirit of Truth.

It is a mixture of pagan theology and a perversion of Scripture. It is NOT an inspired doctrine. It is actually a doctrine of the devil. You SHALL NOT surely die. You are believing a lie of Satan.

And at such a great cost, wouldn't you agree? How many people do you think have DIED because they didn't want to TRUST IN MEN?

It is the Catholic Church that has done the inventing. The 'immortality' of the soul of man, is a pagan doctrine, adopted by apostate Christianity and morphed into what you believe today. It is not of God, nor does it have any place in the TRUE Church of Jesus Christ.

I agree, God sent us the Spirit of Truth to be our guide.

You're absolutely correct, and the One Lord is Jesus, and He is not the One God, nor a second person of a pagan tritheistic godhead, and there is ONE faith, and it comes from reading and hearing the Word of God, and ONE Baptism, which is done AFTER a person makes a decision for Christ, NOT to a baby. The Catholic Church teaches a different gospel.

And it has been, just not by those you are trusting.

You're right about that, but His Church is not the CC, it is the Body of Christ, worldwide, all who believe on Him to the Saving of their SOULS. What's saved? Who are we to fear? Him who can destroy both BODY, AND SOUL? Man can kill this body, and the soul sleeps. But GOD can destroy the WHOLE Man, the Nephesh Chay. In FIRE. And that MAN will never wake again.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

With Jesus, surrounding us? So you believe the dead Saints to be with Jesus, NOT IN HEAVEN, but HERE on EARTH surrounding us?
You won't be absent from this Body of Sin until you are redeemed from the earth by Christ, on the LAST DAY, at the resurrection of the DEAD IN CHRIST.

That verse has nothing to do with an individual judgment. Please provide proof.

Your criticism of Ecclesiastes has no bearing on my respect for the Word of God. Solomon wrote it, and he was the man that God had endowed with the most wisdom. The things he writes are inspired by God, and no amount of 'explaining' on your part or anyone elses will change that. I already showed you from scripture how we are souls, not 'have' souls, and how man and beast are made of the same elements. I showed you that straight from Scripture. If you choose to deny that the Word of God is real, and can be trusted, there's not anything I can say to show you it is truth. The Word of God is the first and final authority. If you don't even trust the Word of God, what is my explanation going to do?
I will adress your question about the 'image' when I answer your other post.

Ok, not only did Job NOT say 'soul' in that verse, but he also didn't say ANYTHING about his 'inner being'. You are adding to his words. That may work for you, but it doesn't for me or any other person who studies Sola Scriptura.

Only LOVE is going to last? Then how do you expect to last? Are YOU love? Last I checked, GOD is love. Are you saying that YOU are like God? You think you are immortal, an attribute that only God has, and now you are telling me that only Love is going to survive, yet you think you will survive?

You are going to quote the same verse that I did? That makes a WHOLE lot of sense. The verse said his 'ruach' went forth, which is the SAME 'breath' that God breathed on Adam, the same breath that God used to make cows, and chickens, and the same breath that returns to God, who gave it, at death. Why do you keep adding? Don't you have any verses that SAY what you are trying to assert?

Ok, do you have any idea how little sense that just made? He was a faithful follower of the RELIGION of Judiasm, yet he WAS NOT following a religion? You made the accusation to ME that all I do is follow a religion. Referring to the SDA. NOW, you are turning around and saying I am a 'lone ranger' and Job wasn't following a religion.

By the way, I was talking about DAVID when I asked that. SO, was David just following religion?

God Bless,
Kelly

 

26. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Image, after likeness, mean the same thing. Adam and Eve were made in the IMAGE of God. We see another who is 'the IMAGE of God'.

Colossians 1:15. Who (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Jesus, who is ALSO, just like man, in the IMAGE of God, looks like God!

John 1:18. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

We know what God looks like, based on what Jesus looked like, and ALSO by what MAN in general looks like. We are in the IMAGE or after the 'likeness' of God. We look like Him.

We are not, however, immortal, as He is. We are corruptable, He is uncorruptable. There is nothing 'in' us that is immortal. We are compared to the OTHER animals in God's creation.

Romans 1:23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

He can't. There is only 2 states that a man can be in. Corruptable, or uncorrubtable. Mortal, or immortal. You can't be an immortal soul, living in a mortal body, or an uncorruptable man living in a corruptable body. You are not only taking that verse out of it's context, but misusing it.

2 Corinthians 5:1. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3. If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7. (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

1. Earthly house, flesh, mortal, corruptible.
2. We will not be naked, or without a body, meaning we cannot 'leave' this body, as a separated soul.
3. Mortality swallowed in life, meaning our mortal body will be changed into an immortal body.
4. WILLING, or wanting to be CHANGED, from this body, which is our current home, to the NEW home in heaven, that will be an immortal body.
5. The MOMENT in which we are absent from THIS body, of flesh, of corruption of mortality, is when we are CHANGED into immortality, and life.

And the moral of the story is: Whether we are absent (in this body of sin) or present (in a glorified body) we live for Him. Because we know that we must all stand in judgment TOGETHER before God, and give account for the things that we did in this body. WE are to pursuade men to live Godly lives in Christ Jesus, our Lord so that HIS Righteousness will stand in place of our filthy rags, in the judgment.

And it is very important to remember that this was the SECOND letter that Paul had written to the Corinthians, so they are receiving this on the premise of the first letter he wrote them, which is the foundation for understanding what he wrote.

1 Corinthians 15: 42. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43. It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Why do you twist my words to make them say something I am not saying? I have told you already, WE are not just 'dust'. We are still THERE, we are just DEAD, as opposed to alive. We need redemption because we are mortal, corruptible, and sinful. We are all going to face judgment, which judgment you face is your choice.

If we are souls that are immortal, and destined for prison for eternity, then Christ did not pay the penalty, and you are still bound for hell.

God Bless,
Kelly

[ July 20, 2003, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ]

 

And you should note that I have never replied to any of your posts.