Who Is Jesus?

The King James translators put that in the Bible. The literal Hebrew, as shown by Young's Literal Translation, renders it 'father of eternity.' Jesus is the originator of time, but he is not the Father. In fact he prayed to the Father, and said that he was WITH the Father before the foundation of the world. He now sits at the Father's right hand. God so loved the world that he SENT his Son. God didn't send himself, but his Son. If he sent him, then he was the Son before he was sent, not afterwards. God made all the worlds through his Son, so the Son existed before the worlds. He was in the beginning with God, and thought it not robbery to be EQUAL with God, but he himself was not the Father.


Dean

 

The theological language which talks about 'one God in three persons' is a philosophical one which originated and developed centuries after the early church, and under the influence of the three cappadocians and, of course, Augustine. Jesus is the Son of God. God the Father used the Son to create the worlds. Nowhere does the bible say that 'Son' just means the Father in flesh. Jesus said, speaking of the time after his ascension, 'in that day you will ask ME nothing, assuredly I say to you, whatsoever you ask the FATHER in my name, it will be done for you." Jesus was the Son even before he came to earth, and that is why God SENT his Son. Hear the parable- Mark 12:6 "Therefore still HAVING one son, his beloved, he also sent him to them". Jesus said he was with the Father before the world, sharing his glory 'Glorify me together with thyself, with the glory I had with thee BEFORE the world was." John 17:5.

This is the gospel. Jesus is, was, and always will be the Son of God, and this is the revelation which came to Peter from heaven, and must come to all who want to believe unto eternal life.

Dean

 

The theological language which talks about 'one God in three persons' is a philosophical one which originated and developed centuries after the early church, and under the influence of the three cappadocians and, of course, Augustine.
Dean </font>[/QUOTE]That's correct Dean! The existence of the doctrine of the Trinity "originated and was developed centuries after the early church." It was developed by the Catholic Church.

I may be wrong, but I would guess that you are of the Catholic Church.

You have done your homework!

Thanks for the research,
MEE

 

Hi Mee,

I would love to try. I did not say that God is the first person of the Trinity. What I say is The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. This is the biblical teaching of the triune Godhead. None is more God than the other. None is any less God than the other. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the one God, not three, therefore the word Trinity. Can I fully explain it? No. Does the Bible clearly teach it? Yes.

I am still patiently waiting for someone to deal with the Isaiah 48: 15-16 verse.

Bro Tony

 

Hi Mee,

I would love to try. I did not say that God is the first person of the Trinity. What I say is The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. This is the biblical teaching of the triune Godhead. None is more God than the other. None is any less God than the other. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the one God, not three, therefore the word Trinity. Can I fully explain it? No. Does the Bible clearly teach it? Yes.

I am still patiently waiting for someone to deal with the Isaiah 48: 15-16 verse.

Bro Tony </font>[/QUOTE]Tony, you may not have said that God was the first person in the Trinity, but you did say the Jesus was the "second person" in the Trinity. So, If Jesus is the second, who is the first and the third part of the Trinity?

What do you want someone to say about Isaiah 48? It seems like a loaded question.

MEE

 

Not quite MEE! The 'trinity' itself did not originate centuries later, but the language of one God in three persons was developed later under the apostate influence of Augustine of Hippo. The early church fathers however, all taught that Jesus is the Son of God, fully divine, from eternity - no-one believed he was the Father, except some gnostics maybe. The Council of Nicaea maintained the teaching of the primitive church, though it introduced some non Christian language, contrary to the commands of the apostle Paul. The teaching of the early church is that there is One God, the Father, and that he has One Son, eternally begotten from the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ, by whom and through whom he made the worlds, who is fully divine and existed from the beginning 'in the form of God', and that there is the Holy Spirit, who proceeds forth from the Father. This is what I believe.

Dean

 

B Tony,

First, patience is indeed a virtue. Yes I am serious. What is the purpose of the red letter editions? To show where Jesus is speaking according to the translator. Why aren't the old testament passages also in red? Maybe because He wasn't known by the name of Jesus. He was known by many "names". I don't read the red letter editions because it is always God who speaks. How can I deny the pre-incarnate Christ and the Angel of the LORD? God, who is Spirit, became flesh. He can manifest in many forms.

In Isaiah 48, God speaks of Himself because there is only one God. Your answer to Isaiah 43:11 is correct. Now put that together with Isaiah 63:16 and you will see that there is truly only one God, the Father who is LORD, Redeemer and Saviour.

Where does the bible say Jesus is the 2nd person in the trinity?

deanl98,

It doesn't matter to me what Young says. Isaiah 9:6 says a son(Jesus) is called The everlasting Father. The Son is God in flesh. Jesus prayed as an example for us to follow. Why would one who is all knowing & all powerful have to pray? He HUMBLED Himself in order to be our role model so that we could follow Him.

BobRyan,

If you read John 14:17-18 with the understanding only God can give, you will see Jesus is declaring that He is the Spirit.

 

It doesn't matter to you what the LITERAL rendering is of that verse, because you don't like the literal rendering. You prefer a misleading translation of that verse which says something which the Hebrew never says.

The Son was in communion and fellowship with the Father before the worlds were.....that is why he prayed. He was always in Communion with the Father, even before he came to earth. Jesus said that the Father 'loved me before the foundation of the world.' John 17:24. The Son 'took upon himself the form of a servant.' He was in the form of God, before he came to earth, and he did not consider it robbery even to be equal with God, and yet even still he decided to humble himself, and take the form of a human, rather than claim equality with God. And so THEN he became a man, and humbled himself. Therefore GOD has highly exalted him. You are denying that the Father sent the Son into the world, and teaching that the Father sent himself.

Dean

 

It seems that people have a hard time understanding that God refers to Himself as HE and I in the same passage. He does speak of Himself in the 1st person and 2nd person perspective. Just one example of many is Joel 2:12-13 "Therefore also now, SAITH THE LORD, turn ye even to ME with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: and rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto THE LORD YOUR GOD: for HE is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth HIM of the evil."

Just 1 of hundreds of examples.

 

Isaiah 9:6
The Complete Jewish Bible
For a child is born to us, a son is given to us; dominion will rest on his shoulders, and he will be given the name Pele-Yo'etz El Gibbor Avi-'Ad Sar-Shalom [Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace],


Darby Translation
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.


Young's Literal
For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

The Douay-Rheims Bible
For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.

 

HisMercy,

This statement does not answer the question. You have come to the verse with your preconceived belief and not let the verse say what it says.

As far as the red letters in the Bible. They are only used in the NT by choice of the publishers. They are not part of the inspired Word of God. I don't look at the color of ink to tell who is speaking. The text tells who is speaking. The red letters were added to simplify who's speaking to the simple.

HisMercy & Mee,

You both seem to think that because one would use a term like 2nd person of the Trinity, that somehow implies inferiority. I have explained the Bible teaches that the Father is God, Jesus is God, the Spirit is God. By the way since no one will answer the verse in Isaiah 48 clearly teaches the reality of the Trinity, by showing all three persons in one verse. The phrases 1st, 2nd, 3rd persons of the Trinity is for our identifying purposes they are not used to infer that any are not God, but that God is a Triune God.

Bro Tony

 

Tony, I don't recall anyone saying that the Father, Son, or Holy Ghost wasn't God.

As far as the verses in Isaiah 48 goes, would you please break it down and show the Trinity and how the Jews believed in three instead of one God?

If I'm missing something, in Isaiah, I would like to understand it.

MEE

 

Mee,

I know you are nor saying that the Father, Son or Holy Ghost is not God.

I certainly am not saying that, we disagree as to how the one God manifests Himself to us.

I have to go for a while something just came up I have to take care of I will be back later.

Bro Tony

 

It seems to me as I have had to take care of an issue this afternoon and could step away for a while, that we will never come to a place of common ground. Except, that we believe that the Father, the Son and the Spirt are God. You believe He is one God who manifests Himself in a limited way at a time either as the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. I believe He is the unlimited God who is one who manifests Himself eternally as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Trinity.

This being the case at least for now because I see no productive purpose to continue the discussion I am stepping away. May you all walk in the blessings of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Bro Tony

 

Oneness and the word "person"

Oneness theology denies the Trinity doctrine and claims that there is one person in the Godhead who has manifested himself in three different forms: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These "forms" are not three separate persons, but one person who occupied consecutive modes. The Trinity, on the other hand, is the teaching that there is one God who exists in three separate, simultaneous, persons. Please note, though, this is not saying there are three gods.
In defending the doctrine of the Trinity and in examining the Oneness doctrine regarding the Godhead, it is first necessary to define the terms that are used. Since the Trinity doctrine states there are three persons in one God, and Oneness Pentecostal theology states there is only one person, we first need to know what a "person" is before we try to discover whether or not God is three persons or one. Therefore, what qualifies someone as having "personhood"?
I offer the following analysis as an attempt to adequately define personhood. After the outline, I will attempt to show that the definition and/or characteristics of personhood can be applied to both the Father and the Son in a context that shows they both existed as persons at the same time, thereby proving Oneness theology is incorrect.

What are the qualities and attributes of being a person?

A person exists and has identity.
A person is aware of his own existence and identity.
This precludes the condition of being unconscious.
A self aware person will use such a statement as "I am", "me", "mine", etc.
A person can recognize the existence of other persons.
This is true provided there were other persons around him or her.
Such recognition would include the use of such statements as "you are", "you", "yours", etc.
A person possesses a will.
A will is the capability of conscious choice, decision, intention, desire, and or purpose.
A single person cannot have two separate and distinct wills at the same time on the exact same subject.
Regarding the exact same subject, a person can desire/will one thing at one moment and another at a different moment.
Separate and simultaneous wills imply separate and simultaneous persons.
A person has the ability to communicate -- under normal conditions.
Persons do not need to have bodies.
God the Father possesses personhood without a body, as do the angels.
Biblically speaking, upon death we are "absent from the body and home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8).
God qualifies as having personhood in that He exists, is self aware, has identity, uses terms such as "Me", "I AM", "My", and possesses a will.
The question now becomes whether or not there are more than one "persons" in the Godhead.

"Let this cup pass from Me."

"And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, 42Saying, 'Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done'" (Luke 22:42).

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, 'O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt'" (Matt. 26:39).

In both Luke 22:42 and Matt. 26:39 (which are parallel passages), the context is Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, right before His betrayal. He was praying to the Father about the ordeal He was about to undergo. Several points are worth bringing out here.
First, in this passage, Jesus addresses the Father. He says, "Oh my Father..." Note that Jesus says "my" and "Father." These two words designate a "me and you" relationship.
Second, "If it be possible" is Jesus expressing a desire, a hope. What is that hope or desire? It is that "this cup pass from me." The cup Jesus is speaking of is the immanent ordeal of betrayal, scourging, and crucifixion. Jesus did not want to go through this. He was expressing His desire. It was His will not to undergo the severe ordeal ahead of Him. If this was not so, He would not have expressed the desire to have the cup pass from Him.
Third, in Matt. 26:39, Jesus says, "Nevertheless., not my will, but thine, be done." In Luke 22:42 he says, "Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." With this, Jesus is expressing His will and contrasting it to the will of the Father. Yet, He is stating that even though He does not want to undergo what lay ahead, "Nevertheless," He would submit to the will of the Father.
This shows that the person of Jesus had a separate and different will than the Father. Since we have two separate simultaneous wills, we have two separate and simultaneous persons and Oneness Pentecostal theology is incorrect.

Questions to ask the Oneness person:

Is Jesus His own Father?
If Jesus' will and the Father's will were identical (in an attempt to demonstrate that there is only one will), then why did Jesus express the desire to escape the cup but resigns Himself not to His own will, but the will of the Father?
Was Jesus praying to Himself at this point?
Was Jesus saying, "Not My will, but My will be done?" if there is only one person and one will involved?

CARM

If Christ is not part of the triune Godhead, then Christ is not the God of the Bible, but some other god. There are many gods, but only one true God--the triune God of the Bible. If He is not God, your God might as well be Allah; He also is a god. There is one God in three persons.
DHK

 

Protestant Sabellianism versus Oneness Sabellianism - but they are both Sabellianism. It is heresy to say that the one God is manifested in three persons. For Paul, there was one God, the Father, not one God, the three persons. The historic Christian faith teaches that the one invisible Father has revealed himself by his Son, not that there is one divine essence equally manifested in three persons. This denies the monarchy of the Father. The historic teaching of the trinity is that which was taught at Nicaea, not the semi Sabellianism of Augustine, and later of Calvin.
Dean

 

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God was manifest in the person of Jesus Christ. No man can see God at any time and live. God came down to mankind in the form and person of Jesus Christ. John said, "And we beheld his glory."

It appears evident (though some may dispute it) that God the Father came down, with two angels, in the form of a man, and conversed with Abraham before sending judgement on Sodom and Gomorrah. Then, God the Father chose to manifest himself to Abraham in a theophany.

At the Baptism of Christ, all three persons of the trinity are present: The voice of God, the Holy Spirit descending upon Christ, and Christ Himself.

The Trinity is:
"the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." (ISBE)
DHK

 

That is the current understanding, but it is not the historic understanding. The historic trinity was founded upon the truth of the monarchy of the Father....the Father alone is the fount of godhead. He is the source and originator of the Son, who is eternally begotten from Him. As such He is the Head of Christ, and Christ is subordinate (but not inferior) to the Father. Confusion on this has resulted in the use of philosophical language which assumes, contrary to the scripture, that 'God'= three persons, when in the Bible 'God'= the Father, who has a Son. This is why JWs and people are so strong. What you call the trinity really only originated with Calvin, who denied the Creed of Nicaea, and monarchy of the Father. What you call the trinity substitutes the role of the Father, who is revealed by Christ, with an impersonal divine essence which is equally revealed by three persons. The scripture knows nothing of this. The scripture teaching is clear, No one has seen God (the Father, not 'three persons in one God') at any time, the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.'


Dean

 

dean198,

Did the Son pray to the Father before His earthly existence? Why does one who is all knowing and all powerful need to pray? As far as the literal rendering of Isaiah 9:6, I think John 6:36 & 2Cor. 3:6 answers that. The reason the current understanding and the historic understanding of the trinity don't agree is because it is confusion. The bible clearly states who the author of confusion is. I like the truth that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

B Tony,

It does answer the question because there is only one God, the Father. I don't look at the red letters either because it demonstrates a lack of understanding on the publisher's part. I think it is safe to say there are people who do read these versions and are being led astray by them. What do you mean by "who's speaking to the simple?" Yes the bible teaches that the Father is the one God. Of course Jesus and the Spirit are God because God manifests in various forms. Your statement that I believe in a God who manifests Himself in a limited way tells me you still don't understand what I believe.

DHK,

1Cor. 8:6 and many more say God, the Father. It's as simple as that. Jesus is The everlasting Father. You are missing one primary reason why God manifest in flesh. God is Spirit. Man cannot relate to Spirit and Spirit cannot die so God had to become flesh. He became flesh to fulfill His plan of salvation and so that man could follow His example that he left during his earthly stay in the flesh. There were not 3 persons present at Christ's baptism. There was the Son, a voice from heaven and a dove. That doesn't equal 3 persons. Please see John 3:13. Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus and at the same time says even the Son of man WHICH IS in heaven. The trinity doctrine of coequal doesn't explain why Jesus said my Father is greater than I. When one understands that Jesus was leading by example it does become more clear.

 

Another example of the LORD referring to himself as I and his.

Amos 2:4 "Thus SAITH THE LORD; For three transgressions of Judah, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment therof; because they have despised the law of the LORD, and have not kept HIS commandments, and their lies caused them to err, after the which their fathers have walked:"