Communion of Saints Prayers to the Dead

"Ever learning and never coming to the truth." That is sad.
DHK

 

Jeremiah 15:
"Then the Lord said to me: "Even if Moses and Samuel were to stand before me, my heart would not go out to this people. Send them away from my presence! Let them go!"

This is interesting. Doesn't this suggest that Moses and Samuel could petition God on behalf of Jeremiah?

Ron

 

You are still ignoring that when Jesus was talking to the two of them, they were on the same "side of the grave" as He was. Where they are now does not change where they were at the moment that Jesus was talking to them.

The verse is just saying that even if Moses and Samuel petitioned, it wouldn't change anything in that case. Even if in another case their petition did change something, it would not change the fact that it does not mention anything about them having received petitions from "the other side of the grave".

 

Psalm 103:20-21
"Bless the LORD, you His angels,
Who excel in strength, who do His word, Heeding the voice of His word.
Bless the LORD, all you His hosts,
You ministers of His, who do His pleasure."

Isn't this a prayer to the Angels?

I know that the Saints and Angels are not the same, but are Angels greater than Saints?

Ron

 

Then why do you come here? Arent there any lively and interesting Catholic boards around? No there aren't , I checked. They all stink, and its obvious that you spend an awful lot of time on a message board operated by those you consider heretics. Who you kiddin'. You all enjoy this or you wouldnt be here.

But let me ask you a question. Lets say you heard of a man at a Benny Hinn "show" who said that he went to heaven for a few days, talked to Jesus, came back (why he would want to come back, I dont know) and told you about it, would you believe him? If he was Roman Catholic, would you believe him then?

 

Why would God say this to Jeremiah if it were not a possibility?

God knew that they were on "the other side of the grave" from Jeremiah.

Does God frequently refer to things that make no sense as though they did make sense?

BTW, where do you find "the other side of the grave" as a controlling text in Scripture?

Ron

[ September 10, 2002, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

It's no more praying to angels than I'd be praying to you if I told you to bless the Lord.

It's a hypothetical statement stating that even if holy men petitioned before God, He would not change His course of action. It makes perfect sense without you trying to add to it.

There is nothing in scripture to suggest that those on the "other side of the grave" can hear us anymore than we can hear them.

 

Hmmmm... Is this an admission that we can at least talk to the angels to tell them to bless the Lord?

Are you suggesting that you know the mind of God? How do you know that God's words here are "hypothetical"? Does God speak hypothetically anywhere else in Scripture?

No, I asked you for Scripture to support your assertion "other side of the grave".

I (and others) gave you Scripture that suggests that we can pray to the Angels and Saints which you rejected, in part at least, because of your notion of "other side of the grave". Please support it with Scripture.

Ron

 

They aren't as lively to you because Catholics are more of one mind than Baptists et al. I love the Baptist only sections of the board where Baptists argue with each other over the same two or three things continuously.

Psalm, even you have to admit that every once in a while a Baptist will come up with a whacky belief and set the whole board off. It's a hoot.

You're distorting the topic. Unless you want to compare Moses with some guy from the Benny Hinn show.

Yes, I would love to talk with Moses, wouldn't you? Or are you saying you don't believe the Scriptures when it speaks of Moses talking with Jesus?

Ron

[ September 11, 2002, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

I can talk to you and tell you to bless the Lord. Can you hear me?

Because of the use of "even if", it doesn't actually have to happen since the statement is only considering what would result if such a thing happened. Therefore the statement can be said to be hypothetical.

Support your view with scripture. In scripture we see that God hears our prayers but we do not see any justification for praying to Angels and Saints, nor are we given reason to believe that they hear all the prayers directed to them.

 

I'm not clear on what you are saying.

We "can" talk to the angels to tell them to bless the Lord but we have no reason to believe that they can hear us?

If I can tell the angels to bless the Lord, why can't I ask them to pray for me?

Ron

 

They aren't as lively to you because Catholics are more of one mind than Baptists et al. I love the Baptist only sections of the board where Baptists argue with each other over the same two or three things continuously.

Psalm, even you have to admit that every once in a while a Baptist will come up with a whacky belief and set the whole board off. It's a hoot.

You're distorting the topic. Unless you want to compare Moses with some guy from the Benny Hinn show.

Yes, I would love to talk with Moses, wouldn't you? Or are you saying you don't believe the Scriptures when it speaks of Moses talking with Jesus?

Ron </font>[/QUOTE]While the Baptists really are quite diverse, the Catholics aren't as of one mind as they often think. You need only consider Catholics who believe that women should be ordained, that baptism is not necessary for salvation, that Jews don't need to be evangelized, that hold new age beliefs (though they tend to get excommunicated as soon as the pope finds out about them), that are charismatic, that hold evangelical doctrine (I'm still trying to figure out how that works), that recommend the "Left Behind" series, that are Orthodox, etc to see that the Catholic church is also quite diverse.

 

I have been doing just that. You do not happen to agree with the interpretation is all.

I thought that you accepted the concept of soul liberty.

Ron

 

I'm not clear on what you are saying.

We "can" talk to the angels to tell them to bless the Lord but we have no reason to believe that they can hear us?

If I can tell the angels to bless the Lord, why can't I ask them to pray for me?

Ron</font>[/QUOTE]There is a difference between asking somebody to pray for you and praying to somebody. Here's an example of praying to somebody (the end also has a request for prayer as well):

 

I have been doing just that. You do not happen to agree with the interpretation is all.

I thought that you accepted the concept of soul liberty.

Ron</font>[/QUOTE]If I simply didn't agree with you it wouldn't be a problem, however I don't think your interpretation makes sense nor do I think it is Biblical. Also, just because you are entitled to your opinion, doesn't mean I have to accept it.

 

I am not asking you to accept anything.

I was merely pointing out that the practice of praying through the Saints is not without Scriptural support.

That you do not agree with the Scriptural support is your interpretaion.

Doesn't make sense? By your interpretation.

Not biblical? Again, by your interpretion.

You're not trying to claim some sort of special knowledge or infallibility I hope.

Ron

 

Well, you've lost me. How is your response related to my question?

 

The practice of praying to the dead has always bothered me, even during the years when I was a practicing Catholic. A few years ago, I remember asking a priest if it was okay for me to pray to my grandmother who had died several years earlier. He assured me that it was absolutely fine to do so. It seemed wrong to me then, and it still does. The Catholic Church says that it is no different than asking a friend to pray for you; but it is different -- when I ask a friend to pray for me I am simply asking him/her to join me in praying to God. We both pray to God!

Sorry to ramble, but this discussion brings back some of the issues I struggled with before I left the Catholic Church. Have any of you had similar experiences?