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Communion of Saints Prayers to the Dead

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by BobRyan, Sep 7, 2002.

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  1. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Bob,

    Of course not, for you are still (and I can only assume purposefully) missing what the Catholic communion of saints is. I reread the prayer to St. Jude that you used in your defense. The person reciting this prayer does not seek St. Jude to do anything for them other than the request to pray, and that their prayers might be answered through the aid of St. Jude's intercession. All prayers end up to Jesus. A spiritualist is praying for the sake of commmunication with the dead; a Catholic never does this. It's a one-way prayer request to a saint in heaven; if an answer comes, that answer is from God, not the saint.

    If you continue to not trust me, that's your perogative. I know what I believe, and I know what my Church teaches. Two thousand years of slandering and twisting the Truth of what she teaches would not change anything except your heart, which you continually harden.

    May God bless you in your search for His Truth,

    Grant
     
    #61 GraceSaves, Oct 5, 2002
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    GraceSaves,

    You did not address the point. You claim that when the petitioner bargains with St Jude - "IF you grant this request..." that Jude is not being asked to "do anything".

    However - when the spiritist also prays to the dead - and fails to ask anything other than "please grant this request.." why that is to be condemned. They are simply "asking" favors of the dead. If there is no difference from asking a fellow churchmember (communion of saints) and consulting the dead for the same request - then the spiritist is in good company.

    The "Do nothing" instead of "Come to My Help" idea is missing from the prayer - that consults the dead for "favours" in this case

    "this special favour and
    always honour you as my special and powerful patron and hopefully encourage
    devotion to you    ."

    In Christ
     
    #62 BobRyan, Oct 5, 2002
  3. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Yes, come to my assistance through your intercessions.

    Yes, by making intercessions for me.

    The intercessions of St. Jude are promised to bring visible and speedy help from Our Lord.

    Yes, come to assistance, as the unbolded portion states, so that I may receive consolation FROM HEAVEN (ie, God).

    Yes, the favor of praying for me in my behalf.

    Sorry, but this is not the same, and YOU are continually misreading the prayer to make it mean things it does not. Special aid comes through St. Jude's intercessions.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
    #63 GraceSaves, Oct 5, 2002
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In fact this very thing happened in scripture. A spiritist medium is employed by Israel's king to contact the dead and inquire on his behalf. -- "Oh Samuel Come to My Help!" if you will.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #64 BobRyan, Oct 8, 2002
  5. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    Bob -

    You are DETERMINED to call them "the dead", aren't you?

    When Christ died, He destroyed death. In our Orthodox Paschal Liturgies, we chant the following:

    "...by death He conquered death"

    The whole subject of Pascha (Easter to you Westerners) is that Christ has abolished and defeated death. There is no more death. In Him is only LIFE.

    This being true, those who have passed from death to life IN CHRIST are truly and very really alive. They are not only partakers of the life of Christ, but sharers in His authority and glory. Remember the verse which promises that we shall "RULE and REIGN with Him". Those are words which speak to mankind sharing in the glory of God by the grace of God. This is the restoration of the same grace/authority which Adam had in the Garden. Adam was given authority and lost it. Christ has restored that authority to mankind, being the Last Adam (1 Corin. 15:45) and shares with all mankind that authority. This began when He gave to the apostles the authority to forgive sins. Can you imagine what a scandalous statement that would have been to any Jew hiding around a corner listening to what was being said?

    In the same manner, in sharing Christ's authority (which is why our Mother is spoken of in such great terms -- in Orthodoxy we call Her, among other things, Warrior Queen), the saints who have gone before us obviously share in abilities which we do not possess due to the limitations of our bodies. Some, such as Blessed Padre Pio, have tasted in a small way these things. Padre Pio had the ability to be consciously in two places at the same time (bilocation) and to read hearts in the confessional. When freed from the constraints of the body and placed in the spiritual realm, alive in Christ, we do not even KNOW what it is like or what the saints experience. ("Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard...")

    At the same time, to protect and assure that we are addressing our petitions to one who is truly with Christ, the Church has set up rather rigorous standards which must be met for the canonization of a saint.

    Finally, there is a mystery of the Body of Christ, of which we are members. In the Body, we all have function and share in the glory of that Body. The divine Head orders all things according to His will and we act as agents, both here and in Heaven, to accomplish that will. One wonders exactly what is involved in that.

    As for the prohibition against contacting the dead in the OT -- Christ has destroyed death. That wall of death -- which is the state of separation from God -- is gone. The saints who were waiting in Paradise are now in Heaven with Christ. Paradise is empty. With the separation from God ended by Christ's work, the saints are no longer separated and we can indeed address them as members of the Body of which we belong also.

    Cordially in Christ,

    Brother Ed
     
    #65 CatholicConvert, Oct 8, 2002
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Sounds nice Ed - but God calls them "The Dead in Christ" (in 1Thess 4:16) long after the resurrection of Christ - speaking of the 2nd coming.

    Christ also calls them "the Dead" and it is reported this way by Matthew in the 22 chapter of his book - written long after the resurrection. Matt 22:32.

    Paul calls them "the dead" also in 1Cor 15:16,35,52 repeatedly and without hesitation.

    After building such a good case for "NOT" calling the 'dead' - the 'dead' - we find the NT does just that. In fact John 11 tells us "Lazarus is Dead" though the text points out that he was destined for the resurrection.

    So when God says "NOT to consult the dead on behalf of the living" - you can not "get out of that " by asserting that we no longer have any dead people after the cross.

    Yes that is the same chapter where the term "Dead" is applied to them (see vs 16,35,52)

    And yet scripture - even NT - post Cross scripture refers to them as "the Dead". Isn't that amazing?!! And never does scripture meantion their magic powers - or heavenly powers or powers of the dead NOR does it speak of the dead "gaining powers at death" - NOR do we find any of the NT saints praying to the dead (or even to the dead-yet-powerful).

    Not a single paryer to them - not one! How can that be??

    Are you saing he got that power after dying?

    Many of the "living" spiritists today do the "Same thing" via something they call astral projection.

    There is a guy on the a cable channel here that claims to be able to speak with the dead and read people's minds. He also claims that the dead are quite active.

    Scirpture says in Philipians 4 to "let your petitions be made to God" - but I suppose that petitioning the dead on behalf of the living Isaiah 8:19 is becoming more common than the Philipians 4 practice of going directly to God in some circles.

    It is instructive that even the Roman Caholic church will not allow such "petitions" in prayer to be made to a living Catholic - only to the dead.

    1Cor 15 tells us that death is the last enemy to be conquered and it will not be conquered until a time "Future" to the NT authors - and future to our day as well - at the 2nd coming.

    1 Cor 15
    22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
    23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
    24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
    26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

    [/quote]

    God's Word tells us to look forward to that future event in which death is finally conquered - the last enemy ended.

    And the "DEAD in Christ" will rise first 1Thess 4:16.

    The Bible does not mention a time when the
    "Saints were waiting in Paradise".

    The Bible does not mention a time when the saints were IN Paradise but not WITH Christ.

    Your statement above - requires a great deal of speculation.

    Again - no such statement in all of scripture.

    Rather - Paradise IS where the Tree of life is Rev 2:7.

    It IS in the third Heaven 2Cor 12:1-3

    It is where the throne of God is Rev 22:1-4.

    And it IS where the saints are WITH Christ Luke 22:42=43.

    These are the "only" statements about Paradise in all of scripture. For anything else - we must simply "speculate".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #66 BobRyan, Oct 8, 2002
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    "Come to My Assitance" is the request of Jude.

    Spiritists ALSO make that appeal.

    And not only Renewed devotion to JUDE is offered in return but ALSO recruiting others to devotion to Jude is promised. Even Spiritists don't do that.

    In the book of 1 Samuel 28 (and 1Chronicles 10:13) we see the spiritists calling up the saints - Samuel in this case.

    Praying to the dead is an ancient art.

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ October 13, 2002, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
    #67 BobRyan, Oct 13, 2002
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The thread on Rev 17 - is showing that doctrinal error and compromise with wordly practices results in the church condition described in James 4:4 and Rev 17.

    The practice of praying to the dead - not mentioned in the New Testament - is perhaps another "compromise" with worldly practices - of ancestor worship in this case.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #68 BobRyan, Oct 17, 2002
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The witch of Endor brings up the deat saint - Samuel according to the text.

    But Saul does not actually "see" an apparition.

    I believe that actually "seeing" the dead -- apparitions, are more common today than in Samuel's day - even among Christians.

    In christ,

    Bob
     
    #69 BobRyan, Oct 24, 2002
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The worship and deification of the dead -

    May God forgive.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #70 BobRyan, Nov 1, 2002
  11. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Hi BobRyan,

    You wrote, "The worship and deification of the dead"

    You quoted Leo XIII twice who expounded upon the doctrine of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, which is Catholic doctrine.

    You also quoted Pope Benedict XV and John Paul II who expound upon Mary as Coredemptrix, which is also Catholic doctrine.

    You then quoted Pius XII who prayed to Mary and extolled her for her qualities, which were gifts from God. Do you recognize how extolling Mary praises her creator, the gift giver?

    Then you quoted Benedict XV who elaborates further on Mary as Mediatrix of all graces.

    Alphonsus de Liguori's "The Glories of Mary" (which you quote at the end of your post) is a wonderful source for critics of Catholicism who lack every understanding of Catholic Marian doctrine and dogma.

    Notice, that in all of the above instances, Mary is neither worshipped (in the contemporary American usage of the term), nor is she deified in the sense that she is God the creator. All saints are deified. In fact, if you have the Holy Spirit in you presently, and if you're being sanctified, then you're being deified presently - believe it or not.

    We're made "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). If we have a human nature, and only God has a divine nature, and if we partake in the divine nature of the only God, then we're being deified.

    She is given the rightful veneration that her being deserves, which is entirely a gift from God, her creator, gift giver, and Saviour.

    I honor my father and mother, and I do not limit my honoring of them to mere enjoyment. If I enjoyed my father and mother and treated them like ice cream, that would be unjust and intemperate. Likewise, I extol Mary, God's greatest creature, for who she is. Not do do so would be unjust and intemperate. And, finally, I worship God alone. If I mere venerated God, like I do Mary, that would be unjust and intemperate - and, a sin.

    If you only understood who Mary is.. oh, if you only knew. [​IMG]

    You forgot to quote Martin Luther too! [​IMG]

    [She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ ... She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).

    One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace ... Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ ... Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).

    God bless,

    Carson
    "Mary's son"

    [ November 02, 2002, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
     
    #71 Carson Weber, Nov 2, 2002
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In fact she "is worshipped" in the American Budhist and Hindu usage of the term. They do pray to their dead - and accept ancestor worship using the identical forms applied to Mary.

    That comparison in one of the points of this thread. If you can show "the difference" between the non-worship of Mary and the prayers to the dead (lighting candles, burning incense and praying - period. Nothing more) as practiced by other religions - this is a good place to do it.

    She is being called "all Powerful" and is said to have both God and man obey her commands - in the quotes above. She is co-redeemer with Christ - EVEN though there is but "ONE mediator between God and man" and that mediator IS GOD.

    The Catholic church does not support praying to me, calling me all-powerful, calling me the co-redeemer. NOR would the Catholic church accept any of the honors/attributes given to Mary above for me - or you. We both know that.

    Furthermore - the church will not allow prayers to the saints - until after they die. We both know that as well.

    We may not be "venerated" or "invoked" in prayer as the Budhists and Hindus do with their dead - until after we too die - according to the Catholic Church.

    All humanity may not say of ME that "Under MY guidance, under MY patronage, under MY kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because, I have in MY care the work of our salvation, I am solicitous about the whole human race."

    The Catholic church and the rest of the Christian world WOULD allow this to be said of God - but not of ME - or even you. We agree on that point.

    And what they allow in this case - to be said of God - the RCC allows for Mary "alone" in addition.

    The claim that NOTHING is being said of mary that one would say of God - is totally unsupportable.

    And as for creator God - Even the Budhists and Hindus agree that not all of the Gods are the creator Gods - but they are gods none-the-less.

    So why pretend that in fact "nothing more is being attributed to Mary than we would expect of saints today" as in the following?

    Surely we both agree that ALL saints are given the rightful honors and respect that they "deserve" as a gift from God - that IS true of you and ME.

    For all humans are born under sin - and in need of a Savior - "God My Savior" is a title we may all give to God - alone.

    The great the contrast between --



    "Mary is all powerful with her divine Son who grants all graces to mankind through her" - Pope Benedict XV, Fausto Appetente Die

    "All power is given to Thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth that at the command of Mary all obey, even God." - Alphonsus de Liguori, Roman Catholic Cardinal and "saint", from his book The Glories of Mary

    And

    Your argument is that since mary IS our all-Powerful, heavenly benefactor to whom the entire human race runs for salvation - why should she not be given these attributes of God in prayer and then claim that this is "not worship like we would worship God".

    Carson
    Indeed - IF I thought she was all-powerful, if I thought that God was obeying her today, if I thought that she was sinnless like Christ and the redeemer of mankind - along with Christ - I too could pray to her as the all-powerful being of heaven to whom I and all humanity fled for salvation and mediation.

    But you have to admit - that this IS the American view of "God Himself".

    And these titles are not examples of everday honor to a fellow human that "injures neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531)."

    Did you mean to say that she praised Her Savior? That God was Her Savior as He is our savior in her statement found in Luke 1:47?

    Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).

    And yet we find --

    O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee,

    Christ says that NONE come to the FAther but through Christ - Indeed that means we must come to Christ.

    But the Catholic church is comfortable assigning this God-power also to Mary
    How can you find power after power assigned to Mary that the RCC would object to being assigned to any but God - and Mary and still claim that this is not placing God and Mary together in the same sense as a Hindu or Budhist would see levels of deities placed together?

    Budhists and Hindus are more than happy with much lesser gods than Catholics make Mary out to be. How can you claim that this is not worship of an all-powerful god of your own making?

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ November 05, 2002, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
    #72 BobRyan, Nov 2, 2002
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In fact, how else would you define Mariolotry so that you could respond to the charge?

    How else can you redefine what the NT calls "The dead"?

    How else can you redefine "prayer" such that your prayers to the dead are not in fact the sameas the prayers to the dead being offered in pagan temples every day?

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ November 09, 2002, 10:54 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
    #73 BobRyan, Nov 9, 2002
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