I've never known a Calvinist...

We should always pray TOWARD God's will. Would you ever pray "MY will be done on earth..."? I think not.

Praying is a glorious form of worship whereby we fellowship with God in accordance with His will. Prayers are made efficacious BY HIS WILL. Any thing we pray not of His will, will fall flat.

 

If they are not good then their natural evil will affect every part of them... totally depraved.

Really? Do you really think they believe that command has validity or that the consequences are true... and choose not to do it?

Who said the unregenerate were the sons of God? John 1 expressly tells us that believers are empowered to become the sons of God. Romans 8 declares that we are adopted and that Christ was the firstborn of many brethren.

The scripture you cite is for believers, not unbelievers.

 

Signing off, see ya later.

 

That statement defies scripture- both declarations and examples in the sense that you seem to intend it.

For instance, God violated Paul's free choice. He had freely chosen to go persecute Christians in Damascus... God had a different plan.

God didn't offer Mary a choice... nor Elizabeth, Moses, Job, Abraham, etc, etc, etc.

But in reality, God doesn't violate "free choice". He allows the unregenerate to continue in their "free choice" all the way to destruction. He frees from sin bondage/gives sight to see/changes the spiritual nature of the regenerate... resulting in the very natural expression of their "free choice" to be acceptance of Christ as Savior.

If those things are true then you are basically saying that God is in control of the circumstances that result in someone's salvation... meaning He has very much violated their "free choice" and that of those for whom He doesn't manipulate circumstances favorably.

Are you saying that people reject the gospel because we don't rationalize it properly to them? That we bear responsibility? That their salvation depends on our fallible abilities?

Those seem to be the implications of your statement.

It means we've obeyed. Perhaps God honored these prayers from eternity past since prayer is also a sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit within us.

I don't think you are an open theist... at least I hope not. So in one way or another, either passively or actively, God foreknows what will happen, who will be saved, and what our prayers will be.

I believe that God both allows things to come to past and causes things to come to past... because that is what scripture appears to say. Salvation, like creation or the ordaining of a life, is one of the things that scripture seems to indicate God causes and performs in the man. Sin and rejection of the gospel are things He allows.

I just explained that... but I don't believe that God predetermines all and am pretty sure that many other calvinists here don't either. For instance, God does not author sin.

God allows things and He causes things.

I believe that spiritual resurrection is every bit as much a miracle as physical resurrection. Only God has power to effect miracles. Regeneration is the changing of one's nature from something it isn't to something wholly new and previously unknown. (Known in the sense of truly, intimately known and not just an accounting of certain details.)

The question does boil down to whether man possesses the goodness in himself and moreover whether the true nature of the power of salvation is natural or supernatural.

 

I said the same thing J.D. funny we think alike

 

Helen, Are you saying that it would be internally inconsistent for a Calvinist to believe he/she was not part of the elect? I disagree. Theoretically, such a Calvinist could exist.

 

Lady from the Beaver State has a point.

Ed

 

Helen don't let them get to you. You are doing a great job. Both sides have issues don't stoop to their level.

Tim

 

How could you be a Calvinist and not think you were one of the "elect", now that would be an impossibility I think? The Calvinist believe the "elect" are the only ones going to Heaven don't they?

 

and that level would be using God's word to back up personal beliefs

I don't have a problem with Helen as a person. I am sure she is wonderful and a very caring person, that i do see, and so am i. I just am one who would rather stand firm on God's word than personal opinions, thats all.

 

Many of the Primitive Baptists, although they believe in eternal security of the elect, yet they do not believe in assurance of salvation, for no one can know who is elect or not, they say, and you can't even know that of yourself until the ressurection. I appreciate the primitives in many ways, but not that one.

 

Agree J.D.

Arminians preach assurance but not security.

Hyper-calvinists preach security but no assurance.

Calvinists preach (biblically) both security and assurance.

 

Uh- haven't we left out just one little minor, trivial, insigniicant little detail in all the above groups?

That is provided someone else's "Perseverance" reaches above the undefined, of course, standard of what is acceptable and what is not, which usually turns out to be whatever I happen to agree with, you understand of course!

BTW, the standards are usually expressed along these lines:

"If such and so was really and truly a Christian, they..."
or
"If you ask me, a Christian wouldn't ..."

You know, real Biblical and objective standards!

But give credit where credit is due; the standards are universally applied across the board!

Ed

[ March 23, 2006, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: EdSutton ]

 

J.D.

[ March 23, 2006, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Frenchy ]

 

J.D.

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Very good point J.D. it does seem that those who hold to the rediculous veiw that they had to DO something in order to get saved, howbeit so small
(the act of believing and responding to the call is from God and so is the faith) also hold to the veiw you can lose that which God gave.

So how can an Arminian believe in assurance of salvation? I mean come on if they had to do something then they can also UNDO it too. seems very contradictory doesn't it?

So which is it?
God did it all even the calling/choosing before the foundartions of the world. therefore he will keep that which he called/chose or we had something to do with our salvation therefore those who hold to the veiw of losing it are right

This is where Helens "Free Will" examples fall apart.
We do have free will before salvation and after, but at the MOMENT of salvation it is the WORK of God. John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who has sent me DRAWS HIM."

God intervines on many occasions in our lives over riding FREE WILL for those saved and unsaved!

 

Frenchy, I don't think I'm the one that said that arminians have assurance (and I'm thinking of full arminians here), but oddly enough, some of the wesleyan/holiness types, even though they believe one must be perfectly holy to be saved, nevertheless many of them have an "assurance" that they are, and will be, saved. How can they have that? Well, those that believe that they are totally sanctified, and can not sin, simply redifine sin down to their level, so that if they achieve some superficial standard of holiness, they can be assured of their salvation. It's like the old holiness people I know that believe they're saved because they never wear short sleeve shirts and they "speak in tongues"!

 

BTW the Holiness example I used, they can have "assurance", but never be "certain" of their salvation.