When is it complete?

This is strikingly similar to the Preterist method of interpretation. To them, the destruction of the Temple was both an invisible "Second Coming" of Christ, and thus "seeing Him face to face", and "what was perfect". But Christ WAS revealed in the OT. That's what Christ Himself and the apostles based their teachings of Christ on. It wasn't as clear as the NT of course, which of course was written in retrospect. But then you have to remember that these people lived by memory, so they knew the Gospels (even if they were not yet widely printed) and the epistles were being circulated then. There is no promise of a "complete canon" of writings anywhere, though we know in retrospect that Revelation was the final book. The only thing looked forward to in the future was the return of Christ, and if Paul was execting that to occur in his liftetime, then why would he now begin talking about a completion of the Bible?
The even bigger context of the latter part of 1 Cor. is the second coming and consummation of all things. It is our biggest defense against the preterists. And won't we literally "see Him face to face", and have the perfect truth when He returns? Everybody says what you said regarding the discord in interpretation,but the same everyone thinks theirs is the right one, and everyone else is guity of those things. Surely, someone (most) are wrong.

And while what you are saying about the different types of gifts makes a lot of sense (faith and hope are "semi-permanent"); scripturally, you seem to be reading a bit too much into things (i.e. the three in v.8 will "end sometime before faith and hope"). It looks to me, like Paul is just contrasting these other gifts to the eternal endurance of love, not prophesying that they would soon cease.
While the complete canon would render these gifts not as necessary as before, still, there is no scriptural justification to say that they are totally impossible today. (I might go with Walguy's idea that they are more situational today). I goal is not to defend modern charismaticism; but on the other hannd, Fundies now denounce the entire movement as cultic (and even criticize those of us who do not "separate" from them as from a fasle religion), based purely on this one passage. But this is not a strong enough to render such a critical judgment of the movement.

 

10. But when that which is perfect (teleios= Mature, meaning fully developed, no longer a baby christian, fully grounded in the Word of God) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (Meaning)
11. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Understand now?
There is nothing prophetic about this scripture verse.

 

I suppose I really should read the whole thread before posting?

Short Answer:

Some say when the Bible was completed. But, IMHO. that places too much strength on the fact that Revelation is a closed book. Ie., *this* Prophecy...

What I am saying is that while we no longer have the level of continuity and inspiration to add to the Scriptures...

Divine Power and Inspiration through the Holy Spirit has not ended. If anything, in these last days, we need the True Holiness and Power of the Holy Spirit NOW more than ever...

Some think that when the church was Institutionalized... Well, if having an organization full of hypocrisy and being spiritually powerless is their idea of perfect and complete...

There is only one Perfect and that is God... He has not come back, yet.

The Scripture is not perfect in the sense that man has left it entirely devoid of human 'meddling'...

I am not sure whether Complete is a good word, either... As it tends to force an 'Open Canon' versas 'Closed Canon' debate...

IMHO we have a closed canon not because Revelations is a closed prophecy/book, but, because we no longer have enough of God to continue the Book of Acts (history).

Nor, do we have, IMHO, any true Apostles to write genuine Epistles.

Thayers:

 

NO it does not fall in the same catigory as perfect since it is out of context with the rest of the scripture.
Chapter 13 speaks of Faith. hope and love

I think you should go back up to verse 9 for we know in part and we prophecy in part (meaning that Christians who are NOT fully developed only know half of what they think they know)

10 BUT WHEN that which IS perfect (Mature, Fully developed) is Come, THEN that which is in part shall be done away (meaning when we are fully developed christians we can now see that we didnt know as much as we thought we did, once we get that immaturity out of the way we can now fill ourselves with mature christian wisdom.)
read through to verse 13 better yet start at 1 Cor 1 and read through to ch 16 maybe youre eyes will be opened.
do you even have any understanding to whom and why the epistle of first corinthians was written?

 

after Julius Cesar restored the City of Corinth became the economic hub of Grece. Corinth was rich commercial City that was populated by over 700,000 people who soon set the standard for immorality in this preverse enviroment paul established the Church at Corinth. while there for more than one and one half years on his second mission, Aquila, Priscilla, Silas and Timothy aer instrumential in aiding Pauls efforts but soon after Pauls departure. severe evils and factions threaten the stability and the very existance of the Church at Corinth.

The Household of Chloe then reported to Paul of strife in the Church at Corinth. the church sent a delegation of 3 men with a letter to Paul that seeks his wisdom on several different matters the church is concerned about.
the letter from Paul to the Church at corinth deals systematically with the issues which has arised in the church in Corinth such as immorality, Lawsuits, challenges to Pauls apostleship, meat sacrafices to idols, marriage, Divorce and the Lords Supper.
Classic teaching is offered in Spiritual gifts. Chapter 12 deals with Christian love, chapter 13 deals with the Resurrection, chapter 15 in addition to pauls words of dicipline he offers practical suggestions to the people while proclaiming the Gospels the power and wisdom of God.
the theme of the epistle is Christ alone is able to cleanse us of our sins and make us presentable unto God the Father. only Christians are able to give true love, true love is an action, a decession and a commitment. God will never let us be tempted beyond our limits. Brothers and sisters in christ need to be as one in unity not to be made avalable to the world.
Mature Christians should often limit their personal libertys for the benefit for younger weaker Christians.
Believers recieve gifts that we may glorify God with them and build up the body of Christ in love.
Jesus wants to be a part of all areas of our lives and the answer to all of our problems.

 

I really dont care how many times you have read the Bible still does not change the fact that you have interpreted that passage of scripture wrong.

I really dont care what Websters dictionary has to say about the Greek word Teleios that has several diffrent meanings.

teleios Definition:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

Now you tell me without Bias of your denominational belief which meaning of the word best fits in with the rest of the following verses.

 

BTW I am not in an uproar
I am just trying to enlighten you about what the scripture is saying.

and just because the preacher said so dont make him right search and study the scripture for your self.
2 Tim 2:15

 

In case DHK doesn't see this before morning, here's some links.

http://bible1.crosswalk.com/

http://www.searchgodsword.org/

http://unbound.biola.edu/

 

this passage of scripture implys absolutley NOTHING about Christs second coming Period.

 

1 Corinthians 13

1. Even if I speak with human languages or the language of angels, but do not have loving concern, I have only become like the noisy sound of a gong or the ringing sound from cymbals.
2. I may have the ability to prophesy, know all secrets, possess all knowledge, and have the kind of faith which can move mountains, but if I don't have concern for others, I am nothing.
3. I could give away everything I own and sacrifice my body, so that I could brag about it, but if I did not have love, I have gained nothing.
4. A loving person is patient; is kind; is not jealous; is not boastful; is not proud;
5. is not rude; is not interested only in himself; is even-tempered; does not hold grudges;
6. is not happy when someone else does wrong; is happy when truth wins;
7. never quits; always trusts; always hopes ; always keeps on going.
8. Love lasts forever. There are such things as prophecies, but they will disappear. There are such things as languages, but they will stop. There is such a thing as knowledge , but it will disappear.
9. We only know portions of things . We prophesy in parts,
10. but when that which is complete comes, the parts will disappear.
11. When I was a child, I used to talk about the things that a child would talk about. I thought and reasoned as a child does, but now that I have become an adult, I have put aside the ways of children.
12. At this time, we see only a blurred image in the mirror. At the time of maturity, we will see plainly--as one person looking at another's face. Now I know things only partially, but then I will know everything completely, just as God knows me.
13. Now these three things last: faith, hope, and love--but the most important of these is love.

 

Was it:

Bible Study Tools

http://www.ccel.org/wwsb/1Corinthians/13.html

http://www.ccel.org/wwsb/

 

Mature

Having reached full natural growth or development: a mature cell.
Having reached a desired or final condition; ripe: a mature cheese.
Of, relating to, or characteristic of full development, either mental or physical: mature for her age.

Suitable or intended for adults: mature subject matter.
Composed of adults: a mature audience.
Worked out fully by the mind; considered: a mature plan of action.
Having reached the limit of its time; due: a mature bond.
No longer subject to great expansion or development. Used of an industry, a market, or a product.
Geology. Having reached maximum development of form. Used of streams and landforms.

v. ma·tured, ma·tur·ing, ma·tures
v. tr.
To bring to full development; ripen.
To work out fully in the mind: “able to digest and mature my thoughts for my own mind only” (John Stuart Mill).

v. intr.
To evolve toward or reach full development: The child's judgment matures as she grows older.
To become due. Used of notes and bonds.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin mtrus. See m-1 in Indo-European Roots.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ma·turely adv.
ma·tureness n.
Synonyms: mature, age, develop, ripen
These verbs mean to bring or come to full development or maximum excellence: maturing the wines in vats; aged the brandy for 100 years; developed the flavor slowly; fruits that were ripened on the vine.

Complete
Having all necessary or normal parts, components, or steps; entire: a complete meal.
Botany. Having all principal parts, namely, the sepals, petals, stamens, and pistil or pistils. Used of a flower.
Having come to an end; concluded.
Absolute; total: “In Cairo I have seen buildings which were falling down as they were being put up, buildings whose incompletion was complete” (William H. Gass).

Skilled; accomplished: a complete musician.
Thorough; consummate: a complete coward.

tr.v. com·plet·ed, com·plet·ing, com·pletes
To bring to a finish or an end: She has completed her studies.
To make whole, with all necessary elements or parts: A second child would complete their family.
Football. To throw (a forward pass) so as to be caught by a receiver.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English complet, from Latin compltus, past participle of complre, to fill out : com-, intensive pref.; see com- + plre, to fill; see pel-1 in Indo-European Roots.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
com·pletely adv.
com·pleteness n.
com·pletive adj.
Synonyms: complete, close, end, finish, conclude, terminate
These verbs mean to bring or come to a natural or proper stopping point. Complete and finish suggest the final stage in an undertaking: “Nothing worth doing is completed in our lifetime” (Reinhold Niebuhr). “Give us the tools, and we will finish the job” (Winston S. Churchill). Close applies to the ending of something ongoing or continuing: The band closed the concert with an encore. End emphasizes finality: We ended the meal with fruit and cheese. Conclude is more formal than complete and close: The author concluded the article by restating the major points. Terminate suggests reaching an established limit: The playing of the national anthem terminated the station's broadcast for the night. It also indicates the dissolution of a formal arrangement: The firm terminated my contract yesterday.
Usage Note: Complete is sometimes considered absolute like perfect or chief, which is not subject to comparison. Nonetheless, it can be qualified as more or less, for example. A majority of the Usage Panel accepts the example His book is the most complete treatment of the subject. See Usage Note at absolute.

Fully
fully

adv 1: to the greatest degree or extent; completely or entirely; (`full' in this sense is used as a combining form); "fully grown"; "he didn't fully understand"; "knew full well"; "full-grown"; "full-fledged" [syn: to the full, full] 2: sufficiently; more than adequately; "the evidence amply (or fully) confirms our suspicions"; "they were fully (or amply) fed" [syn: amply] [ant: meagerly] 3: referring to a quantity; "the amount was paid in full" [syn: in full]

Developed
de·vel·op ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-vlp)
v. de·vel·oped, de·vel·op·ing, de·vel·ops
v. tr.
To bring from latency to or toward fulfillment: an instructor who develops the capabilities of each student.

To expand or enlarge: developed a national corporation into a worldwide business.
To aid in the growth of; strengthen: exercises that develop muscles.
To improve the quality of; refine: develops his recipes to perfection; an extra year of study to develop virtuosic technique.

To cause to become more complex or intricate; add detail and fullness to; elaborate: began with a good premise but developed it without imagination.
Music. To elaborate (a theme) with rhythmic and harmonic variations.

To bring into being gradually: develop a new cottage industry.
To set forth or clarify by degrees: developed her thesis in a series of articles.

To come to have gradually; acquire: develop a taste for opera; develop a friendship.
To become affected with; contract; developed a rash; developed agoraphobia.
To cause gradually to acquire a specific role, function, or form, as:
To influence the behavior of toward a specific end: an investigator who develops witnesses through flattery and intimidation.
To cause (a tract of land) to serve a particular purpose: developed the site as a community of condominiums.
To make available and effective to fulfill a particular end or need: develop the state's water resources to serve a growing population.
To convert or transform: developed the play into a movie.
Games. To move (a chess piece) to or toward a more strategic position.

To process (a photosensitive material), especially with chemicals, in order to render a recorded image visible.
To render (an image) visible by this means.

v. intr.

To grow by degrees into a more advanced or mature state: With hard work, she developed into a great writer. See Synonyms at mature.
To increase or expand.
To improve; advance: Their skill developed until it rivaled their teacher's.
To come gradually into existence or activity: Tension developed between students and faculty.
To come gradually to light; be disclosed: reports the news as it develops.
Biology.
To progress from earlier to later stages of a life cycle: Caterpillars develop into butterflies.
To progress from earlier to later or from simpler to more complex stages of evolution.

 

That which is perfect (to teleion). The perfect, the full-grown (teloß, end), the mature. See on Luke 2:6. Hotan elqh is second aorist subjunctive with otan, temporal clause for indefinite future time.

Robertson Word Pictures

[ January 06, 2005, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

Home > Commentaries > Darby's Synopsis > 1 Corinthians > Chapter 13
John Darby's Synopsis of the New Testament

1 Corinthians Chapter 13

Nevertheless there was something more excellent than all gifts. They were the manifestations of the power of God and of the mysteries of His wisdom; love, that of His nature itself.

They might speak with all tongues; they might have prophecy, the knowledge of mysteries, the faith which can remove mountains; they might give all their possessions to feed the poor, and their bodies to be tortured: if they had not love, it was nothing. Love was conformity to the nature of God, the living expression of what He was, the manifestation of having been made partakers of His nature: it was the acting and feeling according to His likeness. This love is developed in reference to others; but others are not the motive, although they are the object. It has its source within; its strength is independent of the objects with which it is occupied. Thus it can act where circumstances might produce irritation or jealousy in the human heart. It acts according to its own nature in the circumstances; and by judging them according to that nature, they do not act upon the man who is full of love, except so far as they supply occasion for its activity, and direct its form. Love is its own motive. In us participation in the divine nature is its only source. Communion with God Himself alone sustains it through all the difficulties it has to surmount in its path. This love is the opposite of selfishness and of self-seeking, and shuts it out, seeking the good of others, even (as to its principle) as God has sought us in grace (see Ephesians 4:32; 5:1, 2). What a power to avoid evil in oneself, to forget all in order to do good!

It is worthy of note that the qualities of divine love are almost entirely of a passive character.

The first eight qualities pointed out by the Spirit are the expression of this renunciation of self. The three that follow, mark that joy in good which sets the heart free also from that readiness to suppose evil, which is so natural to human nature, on account of its own depth of evil, and that which it also experiences in the world. The last four shew its positive energy, which-the source of every kind thought-by the powerful spring of its divine nature, presumes good when it does not see it, and bears with evil when it sees it, covering it by longsuffering and patience; not bringing it to light, but burying it in its own depth-a depth which is unfathomable, because love never changes. One finds nothing but love where it is real; for circumstances are but an occasion for it to act and shew itself. Love is always itself, and it is love which is exercised and displayed. It is that which fills the mind: everything else is but a means of awakening the soul that dwells in love to its exercise. This is the divine character. No doubt the time of judgment will come; but our relationships with God are in grace. Love is His nature. It is now the time of its exercise. We represent Him on earth in testimony.

In that which is said of love in this chapter we find the reproduction of the divine nature, except that what is said is but the negative of the selfishness of the flesh in us. Now the divine nature changes not and never ceases; love therefore abides ever. Communications from God; the means by which they are made; knowledge, as attained here below, according to which we apprehend the truth in part only, although the whole truth is revealed to us (for we apprehend it in detail, so that we have never the whole at once, the character of our knowledge being to lay hold of different truths singly); all that is characterised by being in part-passes away. Love will not pass away. A child learns; he rejoices too in things that amuse him; when he becomes a man, he requires things in accordance with his intelligence as a man. It was thus with tongues and the edification of the assembly. The time however was coming when they should know even as they were known, not by communications of truths to a capacity that apprehended the truth in its different parts, but they should understand it as a whole in its unity.

Now love subsists already; there are faith and hope also. Not only shall these pass away, but even now, here below, that which is of the nature of God is more excellent than that which is connected with the capacity of human nature, even though enlightened by God, and having for its object the revealed glory of God.

Believers therefore were to follow after and seek for love, while desiring gifts, especially that they might prophesy, because thus they would edify the assembly, and that was the thing to aim at; it was that which love desired and sought, it was that which intelligence required, the two marks of a man in Christ, of one to whom Christ is all.