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Do You Keep Matthew 23:9-10?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bismarck, Mar 21, 2006.

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  1. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

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    Matthew 23:8-9 [1611 Authorized Version]

    8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

    9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

    10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.



    Fact 1:

    Every time you call your priest "Father", you have just violated Matthew 23:9. Moreover, everytime you call the Bishop of Rome "Pope", you have just violated Matthew 23:9. From etymonline.com:

    Pope
    O.E. papa, from M.L. papa "bishop, pope" (in classical L., "tutor"), from Gk. papas "patriarch, bishop," originally "father."

    The very word "Pope" means "Papa" or "Father". Every single time that word is uttered, it blasphemes Matthew 23:9. Moreover still, everytime you call someone "Sir", you border upon blasphemy of Matthew 23:9. From etymonline.com:

    sir
    1297, title of honor of a knight or baronet (until 17c. also a title of priests), variant of sire, originally used only in unstressed position. Generalized as a respectful form of address by c.1350; used as a salutation at the beginning of letters from 1425.


    sire
    c.1205, title placed before a name and denoting knighthood, from O.Fr. sire, from V.L. *seior, from L. senior "older, elder" (see senior). Standing alone and meaning "your majesty" it is attested from c.1225. General sense of "important elderly man" is from 1362; that of "father, male parent" is from c.1250. The verb meaning "to beget, to be the sire of" is attested from 1611, from the noun.

    Thus, every single time you say "Sir", although by the word's deepest "etymological" roots of word-meaning you are merely saying "Senior / Elder", in modern practice you are saying "Father", heretically blaspheming Matthew 23:9.

    Note that it would appear that the blasphemous re-definition of "Sire" from "Senior" to "Father" came from the 1611 Authorized Version itself.



    Fact 2:

    Every time you call someone "Mr.", you have just blasphemed Matthew 23:10. Again, from etymonline.com:

    mister
    as a title of courtesy before a man's Christian name, 1447, unaccented variant of master.

    Every single time you and everyone else says it, or writes it, you and everyone else blasphemes Matthew 23:10.


    If you don't like what I'm saying, WHERE AM I WRONG SCRIPTURALLY?
     
    #1 Bismarck, Mar 21, 2006
  2. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Mr. Bismark, sir, that was one of the most brilliantly contrived pieces of legalism I've read in a long time.
     
    #2 npetreley, Mar 21, 2006
  3. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    Bismark:

    Why don't you go back to bed and get up on the right side of the bed? You are pulling those verses out of context and I'm not even going to bother to answer such nonsense. Sounds like you are extremely bored and need something to talk about.
     
    #3 Linda64, Mar 21, 2006
  4. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    O.K. we know how NOT to address you, so what term of respect MAY we address you with so as not to blaspheme an angry God?
     
    #4 J.D., Mar 21, 2006
  5. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    You also forgot the third title that violates your interpretation of this passage. Rabbi or the modern translation of teacher.

    We also address other men on earth as father besides Catholic priests. Usually by dad, papa, pops or whatever your family tradition.
     
    #5 Gold Dragon, Mar 21, 2006
  6. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Blasphemy comes from a rebellious and sin-hardened heart. Since most of us on the Board are confessing believers, any misuse of Bismark's scripture passages is 'cause we're just ig'nurnt, I guess.
     
    #6 Tom Butler, Mar 21, 2006
  7. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Blasphemer!!! Burn him at the stake, dad!
     
    #7 npetreley, Mar 21, 2006
  8. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

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    THE PLAIN TEXT READS:

    "CALL NO ONE FATHER"


    CAN U READ?

    HOW DO YOU READ, "CALL NO ONE FATHER"?

    WHAT IS THE 'CORRECT' READING?
     
    #8 Bismarck, Mar 21, 2006
  9. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    The Hebrew word 'sar' means 'prince'. It is from this that we get Czar, csar, caesar, sir, sargeant, etc. Some have become titles of leaders and some simply words of respect. Neither is blasphemy.

    What Jesus was talking about, Bismark, referred to theological authorities -- such as Pope, Father, Brother, etc., as used in that way. There are no theological authorities in Christianity simply because Christianity involves a personal relationship between the individual and Christ Himself.

    However, you will also notice that there are some which are given the gift of teaching. They are teachers. Teachers are explainers, essentially. With children they are authorities, necessarily, or classrooms would be even more chaos than they can be now! But inasmuch as I taught about 'sar' in the first paragraph, I am a teacher here but most certainly not anyone's authority.

    It is the use of the word, not the word itself in the majority of cases, which Jesus was warning about.
     
    #9 Helen, Mar 21, 2006
  10. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

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    A SIN-HEARDENED HEART KNOWS NOT WHEN IT SINS, YES?
     
    #10 Bismarck, Mar 21, 2006
  11. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Be careful, Bismark, for your own sake. It is not wise to imply judgment like that.
     
    #11 Helen, Mar 21, 2006
  12. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

    Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all

    1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

    Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother

    Obviously, Christ did not forbid the use of the term father (or master for that matter) in every sense.
     
    #12 Aaron, Mar 21, 2006
  13. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Here's a "master" example.

    1 Peter: For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.
     
    #13 npetreley, Mar 21, 2006
  14. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    My thoughts exactly. My children call me father, and rightly so. If that's blasphemy, then engourage it boldly. The OP is yet another example of perverting scripture.
     
    #14 Johnv, Mar 21, 2006
  15. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

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    HELEN, CAESAR / CZAR / TZAR COME FROM THE NAME OF GAIUS JULIUS CAESAR...

    Caesar conquered Gaul (modern France). With the spoils of war, including hundreds of thousands of POWs which he sold into Rome's gulags (men) and brothels (women), Caesar got so much money that he was able to fight and win a Civil War against Pompey and the Senate, sweeping aside the Old Republic and ushering in the Roman EMPIRE. His fawning supporters DEIFIED HIM, and he became the "Divine Julius". His adopted heir, Octavian Augustus, was the next emperor under whom the Messiah was born. Augustus was called the "Divine Son" and Julius the "Divine Father", they were "God-Men", and it was against such very blasphemy that the Jews rebelled in the early Christian era. Caesar styled himself a WALKING BIPEDAL GOD, in the image of the EGYPTIAN PHARAOHS, thanks to his Egyptian Pharaoh queen-wife CLEOPATRA, who sedduced him to such non-Roman foreign beliefs. Indeed, it was these very foreign influences that got Caesar in trouble with his enemies, and led to his murder on the Ides of March (15th), 44 BCE.

    With all due respect, Helen, your proposed etymologies are certainly not the accepted ones. Please see 'etymonline.com' or 'bartleby.com' and look up the words for yourself, if you wish.


    I do agree that the Messiah was talking about theological authorities...

    I agree that the word "Pope" is PARTICULARLY BLASPHEMOUS...

    But please also understand that GOD really truly IS our WHOLE LIFE, the very ROOT and FOUNDATION of our BEING and EXISTENCE...

    A TRUE BELIEVER is not a 'Sunday Christian', but a FULL TIME ON-THE-JOB WORKER...

    Almighty God has, and SHOULD HAVE, a VERY PERSONAL & INTIMATE relationship to our WHOLE LIVES...

    Almighty God is, and should be, CLOSER TO US THAN _ANY_ mere mortal on this whole Earth!

    This hearkens back to the Christian notion of 'True Family' in Matthew 12:46 - 50. See also Matthew 10:37.

    According to Strong's Concordance, the word 'Abba', which translates EXACTLY as "Papa" or "Dad", and is used in Mark 14:36, Galatians 4:6, and Romans 8:15, is a nearly sacred word reserved for PRAYER to ALMIGHTY GOD. This shows how, when we earnestly pray to God, we are asking of Him that is closer to us than all else, at least as close as LIFE ITSELF (Genesis 2:7)!

    And, if "Abba / Papa / Dad" is an essentially sacred word, reserved unto God, that almost assuredly means that it was NOT USED for regular every day conversations.

    This means that we must DIFFERENTIATE between the word 'Abba / Papa / Dad' which is INTIMATE and CLOSE...

    From the word 'Father' which is FORMAL and DISTANT (stand-offish)...


    SO, I think that perhaps what the Messiah may have been likely saying, in the ORIGINAL ARAMAIC, is, "Call no one ABBA", that is, "CALL NO ONE PAPA / DAD"...

    THAT sacred word is reserved for GOD ALONE....

    You can, however, call your spiritual elders "Father" -- so long as you DEEPLY UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE -- as per 1 John 2:12-14, as someone on another board pointed out to me.

    So long as you know the difference, FATHER is plausibly alright...

    but POPE = PAPA = ABBA is EXPLICITLY NOT. "The Pope" is BLASPHEMY. Period. The PLAIN READING of Matthew 23:9 leaves no wiggle room at all.

    And NEVER can you call even your own blood FATHER by the name, kept for GOD ALONE, of "Abba / Papa / Dada".

    NOBODY EVER SAID STEADFASTLY KEEPING GOD'S WORD IS EASY... (JOHN 12:42)


    *FATHER = provisionally alright for men
    *PAPA / DAD = solely for Almighty God in Prayer, and naught else
     
    #15 Bismarck, Mar 21, 2006
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