Are these guys Baptists?

And "look down" implies a kind of patronizing arrogance that I'm not comfortable with.

I think that believer's baptism by immersion is preferrable because:

- it is consistent with the practices of the early Church
- it is a memorable experience to which the one baptized consents
- immersion more fully embodies the symbolism of death and rebirth

Thus, I think it is the better way to perform the ordinance.

I don't look down on those traditions which practice infant baptism (the vast majority of Christians). I simply disagree with them.

Why are you asking me for such precise clarification of my views?

Joshua

 

Tuor,

What do you define as legitimate? I don't believe God is sitting behind a large desk floating on a cloud somewhere noting who has a "legitimate" baptism and who does not.

Either way, baptism is our entrance into the Christian community; whether we get our initial understanding of it's significance before or after. My preference, as I noted, is for "before."

Joshua

 

Tuor,

It's much more than a hoop. By participating in believer's baptism a person (among other things) demonstrates their willingness to follow the example of the early Church over the subsequent traditions of most denominations. This pattern is normative for baptists - who have varying degrees of comfort with church tradition (my liturgical branch of baptist life being the most comfortable); but who do not feel bound to it.

In addition, baptists hold to the concept of a regenerate church membership. People are members because they have made a profession of faith and demonstrated their obedience through baptism. This is only possible for believer's baptism.

Therefore, believer's baptism is necessary to be a baptist. It is not, however, necessary to be a Christian.

Joshua

 

The Church of Christ teaches believer's baptism is necessary for regeneration. Baptists do not teach believer's baptism is necessary for salvation. We acknowledge those in churches that practice infant baptism to be Christians.

Baptism is ones profession of faith in Christ. Most churches whether Protestant, Roman Catholic, Orthodox will not receive anyone who has not been baptized (though many Protestant and all Roman Catholic, Orthodox accept infant baptism). In the Baptist tradition, Believer baptism is your statement that you are following God and you publicly take the mark of the Holy Trinity to declare your allegiance to God in baptism.

I cannot answer for Joshua BUT we Baptists get our name from one of the Christian ordinances/sacraments. Baptist basically means "A Baptized believer's church". A Baptist church that practices open membership is kinda like a Roman Catholic Church that is not affiliated with Rome or a Episcopal Church that rejects the Episcopalian form of church government or a Presbyterian Church that rejects the Presbyterian form of church government. There ain't no such bird! If a Baptist church begins to practice open membership then they should not refer to themselves as Baptist. Too many Baptist martyrs suffered for not compromising in this area and it does not seem this church takes their heritage seriously. I would have more respect for them if they dropped Baptist from their name and joined a similar group such as the Evangelical Covenant Church, Evangelical free Church or become non denominational. That way they would be more consistent.

 

Tuor, you understanding of Church of Christ is limited. I suggest you read some on their beliefs if you want to make comparisons.

No, they don't. Just because one is congregational in Church government does not make one Baptist. Believer's baptism is the trademark of Baptists not congregational church government in that many Puritan churches were congregational in church government and many denominations today are congregational in polity but are not Baptist. A example is that Anglicans, Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox all practice Episcopal church government but Anglicans are not Roman Catholics, Roman Catholics are not Anglicans, Roman Catholics are not Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox are not Roman Catholics. Presbyterians and the Assembly of God both practice Presbyterian church government but Presbyterians are not Assembly of God and the Assembly of God is not Presbyterian. Just because a church has a similar or the same form of church government does not make them the same.

I judge them by what historically Baptist churches have believed as confessed by our classic confessions. I am not determining the spiritual maturity of this church just saying that open membership has one outside the Baptist movement. If they believe that to be "God's truth" then fine but don't call yourself Baptist. It makes the term Baptist irrelevant for Believer's baptism is the trademark for Baptists.

 

Kiffin, I made that same mistake. This is NOT the Church of Christ but a group called the United Church of Christ and they are about as 'I'm okay, you're okay' as the Alliance of Baptists. A 'lurker' sent me a link a few days ago for me to read about the UCC. I'm sorry I didn't save the link to share with you.

Diane

 

Thanks Tuor! My very best friend in middle school (of course, I'm so old they called it junior high) was Bernie Sue Burnette and her family was a lovely C of C family. I owe them a lot of gratitude for the love they showed me over the years!

Diane

 

Tuor:
I cannot speak for the group called the United Church of Christ or the International Church of Christ. However, as a minister of the gospel of Christ, you could not walk into our services and see a piano or hear one play. This practice is not authorized by the new testament of Christ. Therefore, the faithful members of the church of Christ do not practice or teach it's use in worship to God. Col. 3;16, Eph.5:19, I Cor. 14:15, Mt. 26:30, Romans 15:9, Hebrews 2:12, Acts 16:24,25.
Furthermore, mechanical instruments were not used in worship to God until the practice was begun by the Roman Catholics. It is ironic that the practice was abhord by the general masses in the 700's and was temporarily discontinued. Please not the following:
CLARKE "I am an old man, and I here declare that I never knew them to be productive of any good in the worship of God, and have reason to believe that they are productive of much evil. Music as a science I esteem and admire, but instrumental music in the house of God I abominate and abhor. This is the abuse of music, and I here register my protest against all such corruption of the worship of the author of Christianity.

'I have no objections to instruments of music in our chapels, provided they are neither heard nor seen.' I say the same." (Adam Clark, Methodist)

CALVIN "Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists therefore, have foolishly borrowed, this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostles is far more pleasing to him. Paul allows us to bless God in the public assembly of the saints, only in a known tongue (I Cor. 14:16) What shall we then say of chanting, which fills the ears with nothing but an empty sound?" (John Calvin, Commentary on Psalms 33
AUGUSTINE "musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp here associate so intimately with the sensual heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless performances of the degenerate theater and circus, it is easy to understand the prejudices against their use in the worship." (Augustine 354 A.D., describing the singing at Alexandria under Athanasius)
ROBERTSON "The word (psalleto) originally meant to play on a stringed instrument (Sir. 9:4), but it comes to be used also for singing with the voice and heart (Eph. 5:19; 1 Cor. 14:15), making melody with the heart also to the Lord" (A. T. Robertson, Baptist Greek scholar, Baptist Studies in the Nestle James, comment on James 5:13)

We might as well pray by machinery as praise by it." (Spurgeon preached to 20,000 people every Sunday for 20 years in the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle and never were mechanical instruments of music used in his services. When asked why, he quoted 1st Corinthians 14:15. "I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." He then declared: "I would as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Baptist)
BARNES "Psallo … is used, in the New Testament, only in Rom. 15:9 and 1 Cor. 14:15, where it is translated sing; in James 5:13, where it is rendered sing psalms, and in the place before us. The idea here is that of singing in the heart, or praising God from the heart" (Albert Barnes, a Presbyterian, Notes on The Testament, comment on Eph. 5:19).
KNOX "a kist (chest) of whistles." (John Knox, Presbyterian, in reference to the organ)
WESLEY 'I have no objection to instruments of music in our worship, provided they are neither seen nor heard." (John Wesley, founder of Methodism, quoted in Adam Clarke's Commentary, Vol. 4, p. 685) LUTHER "The organ in the worship Is the insignia of Baal… The Roman Catholic borrowed it from the Jews." (Martin Luther, Mcclintock & Strong's Encyclopedia Volume VI, page 762)

 

The UCC is to the "Church of Christ" as lightning is to a lightning bug. Similar words, different meaning.

The UCC was formed from the merger of four traditions:

- Congregationalists - The Pilgrims and the Puritans

- Christians - (As in the "Christian Church") Like the Disciples of Christ, this is one group influenced by the Cambellite movement.

- Lutheran (Evangelical) - primarily German-speaking churches from the Mississippi Valley

- Lutheran (Reformed) - same as above

On the issue of baptism, only the Christian Church had a history of believer's baptism. Consequently, the UCC tradition not includes both forms.

Diane's "anything goes" characterization of the Alliance and the UCC is hardly fair or accurate.

Joshua

 

I believe Max Lucado had a great influence in bringing musical instruments into the CoC.

Whoa! I live (that is, at home away from college) 5 miles from the Oak Hills Church of Christ where Max Lucado is the pastor. In fact, I just drove past it ten minutes ago on I-10 just north of San Antonio.

One of my mother's good friends (Leslie) along with her family left our local Catholic Church for this particular CoC, and I had a good talk with Leslie at my mother's recent birthday party. I gave her Dr. Hahn's conversion story on tape, a Pillar of Fire - Pillar of Truth, Dr. Hahn's A Father Who Keeps His Promises, and a copy of The Truth on Compact Disc by Fr. Larry Richards.

 

It looks like the ABC believes the soulliberty distinctivness trumps traditional Baptist distinctivnesses. I think they are being quite consistant

And only further confirms why they should not call themselves Baptists if that is their belief.

 

Tuor:
The faithful do not use them. It is obvious that those who appeal to unauthorized practices do use them. The individuals in those congregations you posted are teaching and practicing error as per the new testament of Christ.
Apostasy is a troubling thing. II Tim. 4:1-4;4:1-6, I John 4:1, II Thes. 2:9-11.