Lets Obey Mary

So Jesus "rebuked" His Mother, but then did exactly what she said (provided more wine)?

And Mary was blessed in both instances. She was not merely blessed for being His earthly mother, but she also heard the Word of God and kept it ("Be it done to me...").

Nice try at denegrating Mary.

 

1 Cor. 13:1-13
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. [2] And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. [3] And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. [4] Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, [5] Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; [6] Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; [7] Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. [8] Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. [9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. [11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. [12] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. [13] And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

Hi Tam,

Here's how the pope interprets this Gospel passage:

"What deep understanding existed between Jesus and his mother? How can we probe the mystery of their intimate spiritual union? But the fact speaks for itself. It is certain that that event already quite clearly outlines the new dimension, the new meaning of Mary's motherhood. Her motherhood has a significance which is not exclusively contained in the words of Jesus and in the various episodes reported by the Synoptics (Lk. 11:27-28 and Lk. 8:19-21; Mt. 12:46-50; Mk. 3:31-35). In these texts Jesus means above all to contrast the motherhood resulting from the fact of birth with what this "motherhood" (and also "brotherhood") is to be in the dimension of the Kingdom of God, in the salvific radius of God's fatherhood. In John's text on the other hand, the description of the Cana event outlines what is actually manifested as a new kind of motherhood according to the spirit and not just according to the flesh, that is to say Mary's solicitude for human beings, her coming to them in the wide variety of their wants and needs. At Cana in Galilee there is shown only one concrete aspect of human need, apparently a small one of little importance ("They have no wine"). But it has a symbolic value: this coming to the aid of human needs means, at the same time, bringing those needs within the radius of Christ's messianic mission and salvific power. Thus there is a mediation: Mary places herself between her Son and mankind in the reality of their wants, needs and sufferings. She puts herself "in the middle," that is to say she acts as a mediatrix not as an outsider, but in her position as mother. She knows that as such she can point out to her Son the needs of mankind, and in fact, she "has the right" to do so. Her mediation is thus in the nature of intercession: Mary "intercedes" for mankind. And that is not all. As a mother she also wishes the messianic power of her Son to be manifested, that salvific power of his which is meant to help man in his misfortunes, to free him from the evil which in various forms and degrees weighs heavily upon his life. Precisely as the Prophet Isaiah had foretold about the Messiah in the famous passage which Jesus quoted before his fellow townsfolk in Nazareth: "To preach good news to the poor...to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind..." (cf. Lk. 4:18).

"Another essential element of Mary's maternal task is found in her words to the servants: "Do whatever he tells you." The Mother of Christ presents herself as the spokeswoman of her Son's will, pointing out those things which must be done so that the salvific power of the Messiah may be manifested. At Cana, thanks to the intercession of Mary and the obedience of the servants, Jesus begins "his hour." At Cana Mary appears as believing in Jesus. Her faith evokes his first "sign" and helps to kindle the faith of the disciples" (Redemptoris Mater, 21).

And if you or anyone is interested in hearing a small clip from a basement Bible study one of my professors (he used to be an Anti-Catholic Protestant seminary professor before he converted to Catholicism due to his study of the Bible) gave a year ago.. he tied this passage into the rest of the Gospel of John and shows something I had never noticed before; when I saw it, my eyes almost fell out of their sockets:

http://www.flagstop.com/temp/Dr_Hahn_Bible_Study_Liturgy_09-17-02_Q&A_Spirit_Truth_Sacrifice.mp3

 

Is there a script? I'm having trouble opening the file.

 

That's because it's large.. right click on the link & choose "save Target as", save it in a folder, then play it.

17 min. 40 sec. - 2.13 MB

The questioner is my former college roommate - Kevin - an extremely evangelical Catholic. The professor is Dr. Scott Hahn - http://www.ScottHahn.com

 

Fabulous post Tam! What a great caricature of those pig-headed folks being lampooned in the thread "Nobody (but me) is perfect in their interpretation of the Bible!"

I know you're being sarcastic, but can you believe some people actually believe themselves when they write like you?! Brilliant!

Hey, do what I do: pretend you're the first person to ever read the bible (or at least the first person to ever read it correctly). Then, there's no need to waste your time and energy reading what somebody else wrote about the bible! Just imagine how many more episodes of Todd TV you'll be able to watch!

I knew what it said before I even read it. Heck, the one time I cracked the binding it just confirmed that Paul was smart enough to know what I'd be thinking someday!

Disagreeing with me is the same as you admitting that you're headed for the bit, deep, hot, pit! I'm the smartest, holiest, best looking person in the world, and you're just a beeeg eeegnoramus. And my breath never stink either!

Dang, insulting you sure makes me feel good!


Once again Tam, great sarcasm ROFLMHO

 

Well shoot Tam! It sure sounded like you were kidding, what with all that stuff about Carson being close-minded just cuz he disagrees with you!

PS - You almost got me with your latest post. Until that bit about making fun of you being just like making fun of Jesus, lol. You really play a good uneducated fundie!

 

Tam,

The link I provided is to a Bible study. That means that it is a study of the Bible.

You want to us use just the Bible? That's impossible. Can you read Greek, Hebrew, & Aramaic? Because, that is what the Bible is written in. Otherwise, you aren't using just the Bible. You're using tools outside of the Bible to translate and interpret the Bible. Remember, translation involves interpretation.

 

LOL! That's a classic Carson!
So now the bible doesn't exist except in greek, hebrew, and aramaic.
Catholics say the darndest things.
Gina

 

Gine --

Let's do a test.

Here's a verse:

Mt 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Now....

tell us what it means.

Brother Ed

(I bet I KNOW what you are going to say and I am going to show you how WRONG you are because you don't reference the Greek....fair warning!!!)

 

LOL! That's a classic Carson!
So now the bible doesn't exist except in greek, hebrew, and aramaic.
Catholics say the darndest things.
Gina </font>[/QUOTE]Maybe Carson doesn't know that the KJV is actually an improvement on the originals. So much for his infallibility!

 

There's two ways that verse can be taken. In the context, Jesus is speaking of new converts, children in Christ. Causing one of them to stumble in his walk with Christ has serious consequences.
I also tend to think he also meant it not just spiritually, but also as pertains to young children. He used the example of how horrible it is to offend a young child as a mirror of how horrible it is to offend a spiritually young Christian.
What's your explanation?
BTW, I never said it was wrong to use versions in other languages. It can be a great help. It's still the bible no matter what language it has been translated to. What I've said throughout my posts is that it is dangerous to take doctrine from things other than the bible.
Gina

 

'Let's obey Mary'; that's a good idea.

Since Mary was around at the time of the writing of the N.T. book of the Bible, I think we need a book or books plus chapter and verses to read this instruction, before we get started. I it was important to Jesus I am rather sure He would have instructed us about the verneration of His mother Mary.

I have a small notebook so don't give me too many references.

 

Gina --

That was a MUCH better answer than I expected. Most people look at that verse and say that this is teaching that anyone who hurts a child is in deep deep weeds.

NOT THE MEANING AT ALL!!

Let's look at the Greek:

Mt 2:21 And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.

o de egerqeis parelaben to paidion kai thn mhtera autou kai hlqen eis ghn israhl

The word for "child" in the Greek is most usually paidion. I have show a usage of that word in Matthew 2: 21.

But let's look at the verse I gave you.

Mt 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

And in the Greek:

os d an skandalish ena twn mikrwn toutwn twn pisteuontwn eis eme sumferei autw ina kremasqh mulos onikos epi ton traxhlon autou kai katapontisqh en tw pelagei ths qalasshs

The word in this verse is "micron" (in bold). You may see in this the root of where we get the word "microscope". In the Vine's Bible Dictionary, it says "diminuitive in size or quality, small".

In other words, the "little ones" who Jesus is referring to are HIS APOSTLES. They were "little" or microscopic in their faith and in the sight of the world. But they were precious in His sight, and He was warning the Jews --

TOUCH THEM AND DIE!!!!

And die they did!! In AD 70, the wrath of God fell upon the wicked Jews who had been persecuting the Christians and putting them to death. This was a fulfillment of the warnings of Matthew 23 and 24. If you read the accounts of the HORRORS of the Seige of Jerusalem and its fall, you will realize that indeed, drowing would have been a far, far more merciful fate than what befell these wretched people who dared lay hands upon the Lord's annointed.

And BTW -- we know it refers to the apostles rather than all new beleivers because of the word "THESE" in the sentence.

The problem with not using xtra biblical sources, as you seemed to infer in your original post, is that any can come along and make the Bible say just about anything they want to.

I used to travel regularly through West Virginia on Sundays and used to turn on the scan button on the AM radio just for amuzement. It was both sad and hilarious to hear some of the absolute BUTCHERING of the Bible done by some of this hicks in bib overalls. I remember even hearing one of them say "I'm not an educated man. I don't need no education. I jest needs Jaaaaaayzuz."

Pathetic.

And yet this man would try to argue someone like Carson and convince him that he is wrong.

Hoooooboooy!!!

(I'm sorry if I sound mean in that last paragraph, but that sort of thing is inexcusable in my book, especially if you are going to be teaching people)

Brother Ed

 

Have you ever heard the 8 or 10 year old preachers? A friend from Arkansas said that apparently a local church had a 14 year old pastor who was in charge of the whole church. I can't substaniate that, so it could be false, but that is what I was told. If it is true though- woah. that's scary.

 

I've heard of kids preaching, basically (IMHO) as a "gimmick" at old-time tent revivals, etc. But never of a kid having actual administrative authority in a church.

I hope his name is Doogie Howser, and he's got an MBA and a Th.D. to go with his M.D.

Mark