SDA and Spiritual Gifts,

Hi Helen!

Try this link and see how it explains the use of tongues, according to the Bible. It's long, but just filter through until you find the subject that you are interested in.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/New-Ch9.htm

MEE

 

Thanks, MEE

Actually I've studied it quite a bit.

The first few churches I went to after I became a Christian were tongues-speaking ones. I went to them because they were recommended to me and/or because they taught the Bible and shared the gospel clearly. And it turned out that those churches were tongues-speaking ones.

Then I moved and went to a church recommended to me. After a couple of months I realized it was not a tongues-speaking church, which surprised me because I had thought all churches that taught the Bible and the gospel clearly were.

I suppose I could have left at that point and looked for another tongues-speaking church but I liked that church so I studied why they weren't tongues-speaking and I've remained in churches that aren't, since then.

I don't see tongues-speaking as satanic or detrimental in the way that some Christians who don't speak in tongues do.

Helen/AITB

 

Ahh!.........I seem to detect the wisdom of a very wise person. May God bless you!

MEE

 

My birthday in in August too. I seriously thought you were my age.

I'm not sure. I don't think that it applies to ALL of them, if it applies to any of them. The gift of Prophecy is spontaneous. It is given at times when you least expect it, and I don't see that as something we can control at all. My friend receieves 'words of wisdom' for other people, and it comes when she is not at all expecting it. I would have to venture to say that the way that I see tongues (based on all previous statements), NO, it is not something that we control. The Bible says they spoke in tongues AS THE SPIRIT gave them utterance. NOT as they decided to.

No problem. You know, I am only rude to people who are rude to me first. When I first got here I got into a really heated discussion with Neal and DHK, and I told both of them that if they will maintain a proper attitude with me, and not get rude, the discussion would go ultra smooth. Neal is the only one who believed me.

I'm glad you can debate without being a punk.

But smart enough to ask without asking right? I am 27.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Hi Kelly, Thanks for the kind post. Sorry i haven't posted for a few days, I have been just too busy with life and work. Anyway, one of our problems is a different definition of words which leads to a different understanding of how certain gifts operate. The gift of prophecy must be looked at in the root word of the greek. It only means "to speak before", nothing else. Before in the context of being in front of someone, not related to time in any manor. So, to prophecy is to simply give a message from God. Prophets were something unique to the early churches, The "body" was built on the "foundation" of the prophets (from Ephesians). God did speak through prophets in the form of direct revelation, for there was no NT to draw truth from at that time. The prophets again were speacial and we see in 1 Cor. 14 that only a Prophet could discern what another prophet said and evaluate it as to whether it was proper. Anyway, Prophets got the "body" rolling and faded out quickly. The gift of prophecy now is a special ability to "proclaim" God's word to others. It does not deal with revealation now, that was foundational. Lets face it the Bible is complete in that it has everything we need to know to be saved and live a Godly life in it. Hope that clears up prophecy and shows that the gift now is under our control, well not mine, because it is not my gift. Gifts today are all the same, we use them when we want. They are all service gifts, not supernatural in their presentation, like raising a dead person was in the "begining". I hope this accounts for what Bob said above as well in terms of the prophecy not being under the persons control. Also, read carefully, 1 Cor 14 where it says two or three prophets may simply be speaking in terms of order and length of service and not so much that one prophet would be jumping in on anothers time. Well, more to come.

Kelly, really I would have been fine had you not revealed your age but I am glad my plan worked

Have a great day!!

In Love and truth,
Brian

 

Then, only people who speak before something happens are prophets and what you describe below as 'prophecy' today doesn't even fit your definition

I've been taught there are two types of prophecy - the kind where you foretell (speak before it happens) and the kind where you forthtell (expound on what Scripture means)

I don't think that is correct. If you're right don't you think it's odd that when you talk about a 'prophet' most people think you mean someone who reveals stuff before it happens? Where did that understanding come from?

If someone says Isaiah prophesied about Jesus do you seriously think that simply means Isaiah talked before people about it?

If speak before means simply speak before others then 'before' is redundant and meaningless. You may as well just say 'speak'.

Not really because a) I don't even think your definition of it is accurate and b) you gave no supporting evidence for all the assertions you just made. No Bible verses; no historic documents; nothing.

More assertions with no supporting evidence.

I'm not convinced that verse is taken seriously enough by some congregations - so I agree with you on that one point.

Helen/AITB

 

Helen, Man you were brutal

Just a quick response. The old Testement Prophets were ones who spoke God's word. Isaiah and others would say "Thus says the Lord" and so on. They revealed things about God and what he was thinking and planning on doing. They told of things that had happened, were happening, and were going to happen. What I am getting at is that the Prophets did proclaim the future at times but also gave relative messages the people needed to know in their day. It was all God's word. So it is a prophecy when Isaiah says that the Christ will be born in Bethlehem, because Isaiah was a Prophet. More to come, sorry so vague.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Ok, I'll wait for the 'more to come' before I comment further since I'm not able to think up a brutal riposte to your last post...

Helen/AITB

 

Brian,
No problem. Believe me, I understand. Look at my profile, and you will know why.

Which I agree with. The initial response to being in vision, or dream, or after receiving divine revelation is to GO and tell people.

I agree. The medium by which God GIVES these messages is through vision, dream, and what I call 'intervention'. Where the HS interviens in your 'thoughts' so that the things you say are what He wanted you to say. (you would probably call this divine revelation)

Ok, by unique, are you saying that the gift of Prophecy was ONLY in the early churches? That can't be right. The bible says that in the LAST days God would pour out His Spirit upon ALL flesh and the men, and women would have visions and dream dreams. Prophetic ones.

Uh, which verse to believe is saying that?

I agree. I see modern day 'prophecy' as the ability to 'go before' the 'body' and OPEN the Word of God up to people. I tried to explain this once, but it didn't come out right. But I feel that I have the gift of prophecy. THIS kind we are talking about NOW. When I read a text to SOMEONE ELSE out loud, I can 'hear' in my mind the 'voice' of the author, and 'mimick' his or her tone, and feeling. As if the person who wrote it was reading it to them. I don't know how else to explain it, but every time it HAPPENS (because I CANNOT make it happen) the people who I am prophecying to get all teared up and FEEL the Word of God 'in a way that they have never heard it before' (so they tell me). Enough about me though. I probably just opened up a can of worms with that testimony

I totally agree. I feel like the gift of prophecy is for expressing the Word of God to others. For actually 'opening' it up for people.

I don't feel like it is under our control. If you had it, you would understand.

I disagree. I can't turn it on or off. (note that I said can't turn it OFF. I was at church one Sabbath, and this lady who ALWAYS wants to talk to me because she has before, and for some reason God ALWAYS gives me words to say to her, and don't get me wrong it is an IMMENSE blessing to me to see the edification of a sister, but in my flesh I want to be doing other things. I am often reminded of Paul. He was always so honest. He is my inspiration in a lot of ways.

Now that I do agree with. The gifts are for the edification of others. When they are used for self gratification, that is abuse and Paul rebuked the early churches sharply for doing it.

Yeah, quit paying so much attention to your life. This board is more important than your life!

Manipulator.

SHEESH.

I knew it.



God Bless
Kelly

 

3AM I think Brian was thinking of this passage:

I think what it means is that, as you say, we cannot control whether God wants us to say something to someone else or not; but we remain in control of how and when we say it. This passage is saying that we are responsible for how and when we communicate anything God wants us to communicate. Evidently there was disorder in the Corinthian church and Paul wanted the Corinthians to know that having a message from God is not an excuse for communicating it in a way that brings about disorder.

So, for example, suppose you are awake in the middle of the night and you pray for a friend and you become convinced God wants you to say something in particular to that friend. It was not under your control that you sensed that from God. But it is under your control whether you call your friend in the middle of the night to tell them or wait until morning. That's an example of the general principle/meaning in that passage, in my opinion.

Helen/AITB

 

Helen, well said in that last post. I was thinking of the passage you listed and the others on prophecy right around that verse. We are in control of our gifts the way you described. That is why Paul told the church in Corinth in dealing with tongues and prophecy to exercise that control. To the prophets he simply said, "when you are giving a message and you see another prophet ready to speak, because God has layed something on their heart, finish your message so they can speak, and lets only have 2 or 3 speak per service, otherwise we may miss the football game" (I had to throw that last part in )

Again, Prophets were foundational because they were revealing the Word of God. The gift of prophecy now is the ability to very effectively speak before others, one or more, group size is not a factor.

Hi Kelly, Glad to see you have a sense of humor . When I first read some of your posts I thought you were harsh, but I am glad I was wrong. We differ in our opinion on some Biblical teachings, no doubt, but there should be a unity in Christ for us and all those on this board and around the world, who are cleansed by the blood of Jesus.

Helen, Have you read my posts on why I believe tongues were gone as of 70AD. I'll re-cap later if you haven't.

In Our Lord,
Brian

 

Brian, I probably haven't, but have you read what I wrote a couple of days about about

me and tongues

If not, please read that before you recap anything just for me, ok?

Helen/AITB

 

False.

The NT authors make it abundantly clear that the "Scriptures" are in fact the Word of God, are inspired by God, are Truth, ARE able to lead us to salvation, are living and active and shaper than a two edged sword, are to be studied, are not a matter of ones own interpretation and were used to "SEE IF those things spoken by the Apostles Were So" Acts 17:11.

There is no concept in the NT of "We have to wing it for now since we Have No Truth In Scripture".

No such thing is said in 1Cor14. In fact "instead" of saying "only other prophets can understand a prophets" - (which would mean that only other prophets could hear and understand prophets a - closed system with no church edification) the text explicitly says that prophecy is a "Sign to all believers" and is for the edification of the entire church.

In fact - the scriptures themselves are the work of prophets and if we could not "understand them" without being a prophet - even they would be worthless.

Your argument does not hold.

There is no such "faded out quickly" prediction or command in scripture.

Your position is internally self-conflicted. First you argue there is no gift of prophecy then you argue that there IS a continued gift of prophecy but it has re-invented itself into another form.

Pick one.

Better yet -- Prove one.

Nonsequiter. The Bible makes it clear that there were prophets (in Corinth for example) that did not author Scripture. We find this in both the OT and NT.

There is no statement in scripture that the only function of a prophet is to author scripture.

Scripture is inspired writing - but not all inspired writing is scripture. The Bible shows us that even some of Paul's letters did not get included in the text of scripture.

The opinions you expressed did not prove the point.

Again - you do not quote the text you simply tells us what you wish it had said.

Here is what it really says


27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret;
28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.


Tongues are fully under the control of the one speaking and they must wait.

By Contrast ---

29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.
30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent.


In this case the FIRST one to Speak - must be Silent IF a revelation is MADE to ANOTHER who is NOT standing and speaking - but who is SEATED.

The contrast could not be greater.


31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;
32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;
33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.


Order is preserved BOTH in the case of Tongues - where it is fully under your control AND in the case of Prophecy since the FIRST ONE who is speaking - who is standing and speaking - must immediately cease if a Revalation is made to one who IS SEATED. MID statement - they must stop.

That would have been "chaos" IF God were not in control. IF Prophecy were merely the "Gift of speaking as you had the good feel to say something" it would have one interrupted talk after another.

Clearly it was a much more "God Controlled" manifestation of the Spirit.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Originally posted by Briguy:
The gift of prophecy must be looked at in the root word of the greek. It only means "to speak before", nothing else.

And to think - according to Brian - all that "speaking before someone" ended 2000 years ago. What a tragedy for mankind. We have not been able to "speak before" someone since.

I go to ponder our sad state.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hey Bob, Hope you are well. Thanks for the post I know you say what you say out of your deep respect for the word of God so I don't mind that you "BASH" my interpretation of certain verses

You wrote:"""There is no concept in the NT of "We have to wing it for now since we Have No Truth In Scripture"."""

Do you really in your heart believe what you think I was saying about scripture and God's word? Without the OT we would not have the foundation of the NT. Adam, blood sacrifice, the pass over, etc... What I was saying is that God's truths concerning Jesus were being revealed at that time. Whether those truths made it to scripture is not the point. God used the Prophets (those of which Ephesians says layed the foundation for the "body") to reveal things about Jesus specifically that were not written down yet. As the NT was written the need for new revelation was eliminated. The OT is God's word and every bit as much absolute truth as the NT.

The gift of prophecy, "speaking before others" will be active until that which is perfect comes. I believe the "perfect" has not come so the gift of prophecy remains. God chooses who to give the gift to and the user chooses when to use it. We live in a different dispensation now and Prophets, capital P are no longer part of the the local assemblies. Prophets as mentioned in 1 Cor. 14 are not what we see today as those with the gift of Prophecy.

Bob, you agree that the Apostles are no longer with us right? They had many of the gifts of the spirit and did many great signs and wonders to begin the "body of Christ". The apostles and prophets were foundational as scripture says.

More to come, In Christ
Brian

 

I was referring to your position that "they had no NT to draw truth from" as the reason they tolerated God's gift of Prophecy.

My point is simply that EVEN in the NT - the Saints considered the OT to be their written scripture and when they said "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God and profitable for doctrine" they meant primarily - the OT.

At the time of 1Cor 14 - the events of Christ's life "were past - not future". The writings of Paul are a good example of "NOT" expanding at all on the life of Christ. The details provided in the Gospels are far more extensive than the occassional mention that Paul gives to events in the life of Christ.

OF course Paul also dwells a lot on the heavenly ministry of Christ in the book of Hebrews but He is the only one to do so. The NT authors were not adding more details about His life and death and to a great degree they were not expanding much on the Heavenly work of Christ that Paul describes in such detail in Hebrews 7-10.

As it turns out - we have no text for that saying "by 100 Ad there will be no more need for revelation" or "The Spiritual gift of Prophecy ends when the 27th letter of the NT is complete" or "in about 200 years that spiritual gift is ending" or any such thing.

But we do have the statement in Ephesians 4 that all these gifts remain UNTIL the saints grow into the fullness of the stature of Christ.

I am glad you can say that. Many Christians today take an "either-or" approach to God's Word - but it would be like saying "you can EITHER read Matthew OR you can read Galations".

Clearly then "That which is perfect" is not "Christ" in your view - since Christ came long before 1Corinthians 13.

Agreed.

So why the difference?

If the gift remains - it remains.

1Cor 12, 1Cor 14 - good to go - asis, no changing God's Word. I like it.

Problem - the human can not "inspire himself".

The human can not "give himself a message from God".

"Holy men of Old Spoke From God" as Peter says when describing the way the gift of prophecy has always worked. And this applies to ALL prophecy according to Peter for He says "NO Prophecy is a matter of ONE individuals interpretation".

There is - only one form of prophecy. And that is why in 1Cor 14 Paul is so comfortable with the rule that "IF a REVELATION is made to one who I SEATED" then let whoever is standing and speaking - CEASE (sit down) and the one who has just received the revelation will speak.

The is not simply "having the good feel to start talking" nor is it "inspiring one's self while being seated".

Again - no scriptural support for that.

And once you argue that the spiritual gift of prophecy "continues" you only have scripture to "define it".

In fact - there is only one gift of prophecy as listed in 1Cor 12 and as we see in 1Cor 14. It is not up for revision. No edit of the text is possible.

Agreed. Apostles were by definition those that saw Christ.

Pretty hard to "come up with a new one".

But that is the only way to "get out of that spiritual gift" - ALL the others listed in 1Cor 12 stand as you stated before regarding prophecy - "still in full force" as far as "the promise" is concerned.

But just as in the days of Israel - apostacy lead to 400 years of "silence", the "falling away" of 2Thess 2 has lead to a great deal of "silence" in God's church.

In Christ,

Bob

[ March 25, 2003, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Hi Bob, sounds like we are agreeing on a few things. When I read the below verses I can only conclude that if something is the foundation of something it is not in the rest of it. Like with a building, your foundation is poured cement and your walls are wood and the roof shingles. We know that the Apostles are not part of the current body and they are listed with the prophets. Both prophets and apostles are the foundation that the “body of Christ” is built on.
Bob, do you believe when the Prophets in 1 Cor. spoke, they were speaking of events to come? Were they telling different people to avoid a chariot ride because if they ride tomorrow they will crash? I really believe they spoke of the truths of Jesus that were not yet written, as none of the NT was written at that time. Once the foundation was built then the building material used in the foundation was not needed anymore. That’s it for now.
Take care,
In Christ,
Brian

NASB
19 So then you are no longer (61) strangers and aliens, but you are (62) fellow citizens with the saints, and are of (63) God's household,
20 having been (64) built on (65) the foundation of (66) the apostles and prophets, (67) Christ Jesus Himself being the (68) corner stone,
21 (69) in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into (70) a holy temple in the Lord,

KJV
[19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
[20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
[21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

 

That could only work - if that book were the last one in all of scripture -- it is not. It did not indicated that "The prophets" had ended as of the writing of that statement - even by your own account.

And indeed - you already admitted that "the perfect has not yet come" so Prophecy remains. If there are no more prophets - neither is there prophecy for a prophet is one who prophesies.

In fact God says "IF there is a prophet among you I WILL speak to him in a dream or a vision".

Are you referring to examples like Agabus?

I don't happen to have the video tape of the 1Cor 14 church service but I can conclude that the prophets recorded in the NT such as Agabus and Simeon and Anna do represent "examples" of what God had revealed "by dream or vision".

AS Peter stated in the NT regarding prophecy "NO prophecy IS a matter of one man's interpretation" He argues that inspired by the Holy Spirit - prophets "Speak from God".

For example? What examples do you have of Prophets speaking in the NT outside the Gospels - speaking "The truths of Jesus" not written in scripture? Were they inspired "by Revelation" - (Recall "IF a revelation is MADE to one who IS seated" in 1Cor 14).

Were they communicated with via "dream or vision" ?

(Recall God's own statement to this fact in Numbers 12:6.)

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hi Bob, I will give you the point that you can say that one who prophesies is a prophet. I understand that line of reasoning. I do believe that there is a distinction between what 1 Cor. 14 calls a prophet and the gift of prophecy that operates today. The point is that NEW revelations were given to the "prophets" of the early early church. They spoke of old and current truths and spoke of brand new truths that God had given them. Where it says in 1 Cor. 14 that a prophet that got a NEW revelation should stop the other prophet from speaking shows simply that at that time new revelation had presidence over a regular message that was being spoken. 1 cor. was written early in the history of the church, in later books after Ephesians they are no longer mentioned. The new revelation was needed to get the church started for those early years. The apostles were God's special "church" builders and the early assemblies were built on a foundation of apostles and prophets. A modern prophet, though I personally would not use that term, is one who speaks clearly of God and His Word and uses his ability to build others in the "body" up. Also, proclaiming God's gospel can reach the lost as well, but the gift is more for the edification and building up of those already saved.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Right there is the very point - where we differ.

In Numbers 12:6 God Himself says "IF there is a prophet among you I WILL speak to him by a dream or a vision".

In 1Cor 12 - there is only One gift of Prophecy.

In 1Cor 14 - only one.

In 2Peter 1:21 - only one form of manifestation.

Agabus merely predicts that Paul will be bound hand and foot in Jerusalem.

There is no limit set in 1Cor 14 on what they spoke through prophecy.

Basically the "salient points" upon which your argument hangs for "two types of gifts of prophecy" -- are all missing from scripture.

Is it tradition? Where do you get it?

In Christ,

Bob