The LAST Trumpet In 1 Cor. 15:52?

Me4Him:

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- preach it!

 

OldRegular,

While Me4Him keeps evading your question and ED E avoids the truth (this time falsely assuming the rapture and the resurrection of every/ALL believers does not occur at the same moment),

You, my Amil friend, assume that the 1000-year
"service by the Martyrs in the temple of heaven unto God day and night" is not literal!

The Martyrs must be raised up (at the same time for the rapture on the Day Christ destroys all the wicked) or Paul fails to abide by the "word
of the Lord that all believers rise up on the
same last day"!

But you have no room for the Martyrs to literally
serve God Day and Night in the Temple in heaven
while it continues to exist 1000 literal years.

You are forced to "spiritualize" the Resurrection
(spiritual birth instead of bodily resurrection) just to fit a literal general resurrection. Rev. 20:5. Your view requires the substitution of a spiritual birth for a bodily resurrection.

Jesus, on the other hand, speaks of a literal
resurrection at "an hour" when the dead in
Christ arise and those who survive are caught
up to meet the Martyrs (and all who sleep in
Jesus) before they BEGIN to "serve God in
heaven and/or reign with Christ on earth over the nations" for 1000 LITERAL years.

While the view of two separate resurrections
rests on "an hour" for the saved and another "hour" for the lost, your use of "the hour" to prove a general resurrection is far more questionable than a LITERAL resurrection for the Martyrs prior to their reign in the Temple of heaven for 1000 LITERAL years.

The only reason for introducing the reality of
a 1000 year literal period is that this is the
basis for the victory of every Saint during
the great tribulation to "love not his life
unto death" ... for they will know their reward
is to "serve God in heaven" while the best that
is reserved for survivors is to "sit on earthly thrones". Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4-5.

The revelation of 1000 years has those in mind
who face martyrdom even during the 3 1/2 days
while all hope seems lost with the two Prophets
lying dead in a street of Jerusalem and millions
invading Israel to destroy God's people.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Frankly I don't understand your point in the above quote. However, I don't spiritualize the passage from the Gospel of John that clearly teaches a general resurrection.

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The passage states that the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice And shall come forth.

There is no way that you can avoid a general resurrection unless you want to splinter Scripture as is the habit of dispensationalists.

I would point out in your mention of Revelation 20:5 that John sees souls in Revelation 20:4, not bodies. As far as the identy of those who have part in the first resurrection it is necessary that you understand who is the first person in Scripture to be resurrected. That person is Jesus Christ. Those who have part in the first resurrection are those who have been saved through faith in Jesus Christ. Scripture tells us:

Revelation 20:6
6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

At the GWT, (last day, note "day") "ALL" will be present, but guess what happen "BEFORE" the GWT,

1. Rapture (only the saved)
2 Trib
3. Jesus returns (Wheat/Tares separated)
4. Mill Reign Satan bound
5. Mill reign over, Satan loose
6. GWT.

The ""Last day" is "AFTER" the "Seventh day" is "OVER", so the "last day" is the "EIGHTH DAY".

Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Re 20:11 And I saw a great white throne,

 

At the GWT, (last day, note "day") "ALL" will be present, but guess what happen "BEFORE" the GWT,

1. Rapture (only the saved)
2 Trib
3. Jesus returns (Wheat/Tares separated)
4. Mill Reign Satan bound
5. Mill reign over, Satan loose
6. GWT.

The ""Last day" is "AFTER" the "Seventh day" is "OVER", so the "last day" is the "EIGHTH DAY".

Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Re 20:11 And I saw a great white throne,

</font>[/QUOTE]Me4Him, let’s be as Berean Baptist’s here, and prove scripture. Everyone is welcome in this study of His Word.

In order, with no skips, can you or someone make a post for each of the below questions, i.e. in one Post starting with A identify the Lamb. Then in the same post “identify” B, and so on. In this way concentration is centered to a specific question, which should bring us to the correct answer. Also this will be Your thoughts and understanding put forth in One Post. You may change some minds in this manner, for if your understanding is consistent with His Word, then you understand the interpretation of the Holy Spirit, for scripture will prove itself.

Scripture will be needed, and not what any of the “fathers” after 100 A.D. puts forth.

A. Can you, or someone identify the Lamb for us?
B. Can you, or someone identify who are those that the Lamb said He came for?
C. Can you, or someone identify those guests called to the marriage supper of the Lamb that some say takes place in heaven during the tribulation?
D. Can you, or someone identify those people in Revelation 19:1?
E. Can you, or someone identify the voice of a great multitude in Revelation 19:6
F: Can you, or someone identify who the wife is that has made herself ready, after the Tribulation, in Revelation 19:7
G. Can you, or someone identify the Bride, The Lamb’s wife in Revelation 21:9 through 27?

I believe systematic study will get us very close to what interpretation the Holy Spirit will present to us.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

Ituttut

Your questions are all answered in the chart above, including the "Brides" at both wedding, Lamb's/Church, during the trib, God/Israel, in "Cana", "in the "Third day". (5th, 6th, 7th)

You have to pay attention to ever word in scripture, they are there for a reason.

 

Pay attention ituttut!

 

I don’t find any answer for the “Lamb’s marriage supper”, and since you say the chart is correct, I would appreciate how you arrive at this “placement”. I thought perhaps if you would answer my questions in order it would tell us how you arrive at your position. I have been known to change, for I have not always been a follower of the gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven. If the chart is correct, then it can identify by scripture your placement of the “Lambs marriage supper” in heaven.

Your “proof” will also need to work its way into what we know of marriage in His Word. We know the process of marriage is not known in heaven. We also know marriage of the Jew included a big “blow out”, or reception “after” the wedding. We see this custom in John 2.

I will appreciate being further enlightened in this matter.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

I do my best sir.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

I do my best sir.

Christian faith, ituttut </font>[/QUOTE]This might help



If it doesn't, this will.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html

 

This was written last week, when I was having
computer(s) problem(s)

Mel Miller: //Ed E makes the statement above that "the last
trump is not the last trump" because it sounds
three times!//

I'm going to have to read what I say before I post.
I don't remember that part???

Mel Miller: //Sounding the Trumpet three times
is customary ... ///

So we are going to understand the scriputre by customs?
What ever became of letting the scripture explain the scripture?
Who has a custom of blowing the trumpet three times?

Mel Miller: //Ed E takes it on himself the authority to
change the meaning of "after the tribulation"
to "before the Tribulation". Here is his quote:
_______
"In John 14:1-3 Jesus promises that He will come and get me.
In places like Matthew 24:31, 2 Thess 2:1-3, Revelation 1;4,
etc we see that Jesus is going to come and get me BEFORE the
Tribulation Period Judgement of the World".//

I've shown how Matthew 24:31 is about the gathering
and according the application of Matthew 24:3 to Matthew 24:31-44
these verses speak of the pretribulation rapture.
Feel free to argue otherwise, only on person has, and they failed
and it was three topics ago.

2 Thess 2:1-3 speaks of the (KJV) 'falling away' which is when
I'm going to fall away from this ol' world straight into the
Arms of Jesus (when He comes to get me before the Tribluation
period). Feel free to argue otherwise, nobody has yet in this topic.
Oh yes, if you have english versions prior to the KJV, a variant
of 'depature' is used - when we, the Church age saints, depart
this world to go home to be with Jesus.

Revelation 4:1 is the pretribulation rapture BY TYPE, by
metaphor.

Mel Miller: //Ed misinterprets Matt.24:31 as being a THIRD
sounding of the LAST Trump following the great
tribulation.//

I'm going to have to read what I say before I post.
I don't remember that part???
Nope. I didn't say that. You brought the three blowings of the trumpet
to the table, this is my first responce to the three blowing
of the last trumpet.

Mel Miller: //So ED E disallows the common practice of
sounding the Trumpet three times at the Feast
of Tabernacles.//

I'm going to have to read what I say before I post.
I don't remember that part???

Mel Miller: //The Last Trump will sound (1) for the Coronation of Christ;
(2) for His "bringing the souls of the dead with Him to meet
the Elect whom He gathers from earth" to the atmosphere
around the globe and
(3) for "sending the angels after the great tribulation
to gather the Elect from all the extremities
of the heavenS" unto Himself!! Matt.24:31.//

I"ll agree that verse might be used to show #3.
Where are the scripture proofs for #1 and #2?

Mel Miller: // Paul agrees with Jesus in 2 Thess. 2:1 that
they meet Jesus at the Synagogue in the Sky.//

I guess i missed 'synagogue in the sky' last 117 times I read
that verse???

Mel Miller: //
I wish to support your view that the 7th Trumpet
is the Last Trump.//

ALright! gathering up support - you will need more support
then that when you attack the Scripture though.

SATAN - n. the chief evil spirit; the great adversary of man;
the devil

derivation: OldEnglish, Latin, Greek, Hebrew - adversary

 

blessings in the name of Jesus Christ,

I realize this is a hot issue, and I am saddened it got more or less mean. But please bear with me, you will probably not agree with a lot of what I will write but it might be useful.

Here is what I read, and I hope this helps the original poster and move the discussion in a more or less new direction


1Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Paul is announcing/about to announce, our being raptured. He says it's "a mystery". That tells me that in Matthew 24:40-41 Jesus is not talking about the rapture of the church since Paul is just now revealing this. This tells me there might be another rapture of tribulation saints which are not church.
I believe this solves many of the arguments concerning pre/post tribulation rapture.
I must reiterate that I believe in 2 different raptures, one pre-triblutaion of the church and one post-tribulation of saints, the latter being present in the Old Testmament in such passages as Job, Psalms and Isaiah, and that some application to the church can be made since the process of translating us seems to be the same
(I am aware of the various renderings of Matthew 24 even outside any rapture)

1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump : for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I didn't read about a last TRUMPET here. I read about a last TRUMP. Things different are not equal unless the Bible equates them .

"trump"
2 : a sound of or as if of trumpeting &lt;the trump of doom&gt;
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/trump

Ok, so the Scripture is telling me at the last sound, if you will, of a certain trumpet, the rapture will take place.
If I open Revelation 11, I don't read of any rapture. All that secures we are not dealing with the last of 7 trumpets in Revelation. Moreover,in an other passage on the church's rapture found in 1Thessalonians 4, we read that this trump is "trump of God"; not the trumpet of an angel. Things different are not equal unless the Bible equates them.

Now let's bring the trumpet into focus. It is in 1 Corinthians 15, associated with a sound.
Interestingly, we have a similar association 1 Thessalonians 4, this time between a trump and a voice

1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout , with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

look where the Bible directs our study

Job 37:2 Hear attentively the noise of his voice , and the sound that goeth out of his mouth.

Do you know the reason to keep our ears out for his voice?

Job 37:4 After it a voice roareth: he thundereth with the voice of his excellency; and he will not stay them when his voice is heard.

Stay them where? On earth perhaps?

Now, where again do we read of someone being raptured when a voice is heard?

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard WAS AS IT WERE OF A TRUMPET talking with me; which said, Come up hither , and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

"AS IT WERE OF A TRUMPET". John gives it to you clear. No "spiritualizing" involved my brethren.

So what we have is Jesus coming down from heaven with a shout like the trump of a trumpet which speaks saying " come up hither ".
I suspect that during the trumps before the last trump the dead in Christ are being raised, while at the last trump we which are alive and remain will be caught up. It is interesting that there is a certain sequence in Job 37 also. You might find it interesting that Jews believe in a resurrection phased into 7 trumps (soundings) of a trumpet.

Dare I add that all the born again will probably hear their names being called

One last time I'll show you a voice and rapture being connected

John 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice : and he calleth his own sheep by name , and leadeth them out.

Leadeth them out of where? Perhaps the Earth? like in Job 37?

To answer another question, those unsaved will simply hear thunder

Job 37:4 After it a voice roareth: he thundereth with the voice of his excellency;

John 12:29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

I understand there may be many questions but I didn't want to post too long a message sine they can get tedious to read.
God bless you all

 

Good job Eleazar of interpretating scripture.

Israel won't listen to the "VOICE OF JESUS", (Holy Ghost) therefore they are "blinded" until Jesus is finished "Talking to the church", or "fulness of the Gentiles". (rapture)

Then during the trib, "GOD" will use the Two witnesses, Moses/Elijah (Law and Prophet) to "SPEAK" to Israel agains as he did in the OT.

But the "VINE" doesn't produce "FIGS", only God produces "FIGS", and the "HARVEST" season is "different" for both "olives Berries" and "FIGS",

Leadership by both Jesus/God do not function at the same time, in the same time frame.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine,

Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. (same time)

Pre trib rapture.

 

Scripture please? Any how, they didn't listen in the OT why would they listen in the trib.

 

I do my best sir.

Christian faith, ituttut </font>[/QUOTE]This might help



If it doesn't, this will.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html </font>[/QUOTE]I would like to study your charts to see if they are true, but if you can’t answer with scripture how you arrive at the belief the "marriage supper of the Lamb" takes place in heaven, can we have faith in your charts?

Please accommodate, for in your knowledge you believe the event takes place in heaven. If the Spirit has revealed this to you, I hope you will share this information with us.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Right on chart!!!
(tell it like it is! Tell it like it's
going to be!)

Ituttut: //I would like to study your charts to see if they are true,
but if you can’t answer with scripture how you arrive at
the belief the "marriage supper of the Lamb" takes place in heaven,
can we have faith in your charts? //

Unfortunately your superitory smurk is unhandy in this fourm.
You have NOT taken the moral highround here, in fact, this tactic
smacks of a double standard.

Most people take the first thought that crosses their mind, after
reading the scripture. I can't speak for Bro Me4Him. But I know that
I thought that the scene in Revelation 19 about the Marriage supper
of the Lamb, takes place in Heaven before the armies of heaven accompny
the Lamb to the Grand ANd Glorious Second coming.
I've never found anything that contradicts my assumption.
Revelation 19:1-5 takes place in heaven.
Revelation 19:6-10 is 'the marriage supper of the Lamb'
(note no scene change)
Revelation 19:11-16 is the start of the Second Coming of
Jesus in full power and glory.
Yep, no wonder that MANY selcect Heaven as the place where
'the marriage supper of the Lamb' takes place.

NOTE: There is a double standard at play if people who have made
assumptions DO NOT ADMIT THEY HAVE.

It seems to me there is only three categories of places
where the 'marriage supper of the Lamb' can take place:

1. heaven
2. earth
3. hell

I don't know of any one who things 'the marriage supper of the Lamb'
takes place in hell, so I won't list the contradictions of
'the marriage supper of the Lamb' taking place in hell.

Say 'the marriage supper of the Lamb' takes place on earth.
It takes place during the Tribulation Period.
Of the Tribulation Period Jesus says in Matthew 24:22a (HCSB):

Unless those days were cut short, no one would survive. ...

Would Jesus have 'the marriage supper of the Lamb' on the
earth during the worse thing that ever happens
on the earth (Rev 24:21)? I don't think so. Heaven is
the scene of 'the marriage supper of the Lamb'.

Me4Him: //Then during the trib, "GOD" will use the Two witnesses,
Moses/Elijah (Law and Prophet) to "SPEAK" to Israel agains
as he did in the OT. //

OldRegular: //Scripture please? Any how, they didn't listen in the OT
why would they listen in the trib.//

Revelation 11:3-12

(BTW, Revelation 11:2 says to not measure the outer court.
The reason to measure is to allows the design of the building
to take place. So 'measure not the outer court' means don't
build in the outer court. From about 686AD until today (2006) the Dome of the
Rock has existed in the Temple's outer court. Evidently it will
still exist in the Tribulation period.)

I don't think millions of Jews will notice that Jesus is their
Messiah until the Antichrist goes into the temple at the
mid-tribulation and commits the Abomination of Desolation.
Then, things will be different, millions of Jews will beleive that
Jesus is their Messiah unto salvation. The Lord Himself will
protect the newly saved Jews in the Wilderness (Revelation 12:14).

 

I looked, and searched to see if you may have meant something else, but I can see nothing other than, The judger cometh. I so hate seeing one Brother turn on another. This post will be one of which I do not like to do, viz. correct (not judge) an unjust judgment. One always comdemns themselves when they judge others. Come down off your high horse “fair weather” friend, picking and choosing each post of others to either praise or condemn. Have you forgotten you have told me to “Preach It”, just as you here praise Me4Him. You love him now, but tomorrow is another day. Why this sudden change of sitting in judgment of a Brother in Christ.

I ask a question, and it becomes a smirking superiority. Well, let’s see what evaluation awaits as the most humble of humble Ed gives us further light.

You’re words turn on you - “You have NOT taken the moral highround here, in fact, this tactic smacks of a double standard”. You present “your” assumption here, but we don’t “assume” in His Word, and then present it as fact. We are to prove His Word, and you do contradict His Word.

Can you show by scripture where angels “marry the Lamb”? Verse 10, ”And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Don’t you also need to determine who it is the Lamb will marry? Does it not say “wife”. Doesn’t scripture tell us Israel is the “wife”?

Yep, in tradition of man they do so.

Noted, and may it apply to all that assume, not realizing their error.

Why are you now off in another direction, one in which you seem to be confused in. You must have me mixed up with someone else, as your faulty assumption cannot apply to me. I know, as you must know, I say nothing other than I believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to save me. Can you say he same? If so, you are saved. If not, you may think you are.

Why to even include such a vile thought?

Why to even include such a vile thought?

.

That is what you say. It is not what the Word says.

Have you never thought about the “marriage supper of the Lamb to His “wife” coming to earth, as He promised His People? What does Revelation 6 say? ”And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.” Do you not believe scripture as it tells you of the thousand year reign? What a “supper" this “marriage supper of the Lamb” will be.

The customs of God’s people are His customs. Their custom as to the marriage supper is that it comes “after the marriage”. As Israel is the “wife” of the “Bridegroom”, and marriage is not known in heaven, we know the marriage will take place on “earth”. We see the “marriage supper” comes after the marriage, for we see the joy and the happiness, and celebration continues for a good period of time. Wine will have to be produced time after time during this time of celebration in the “millennium” as shown in John. Jesus, Peter, John, Paul, and all the rest knew the wine they drank was not the best. That will be served for a “thousand years”, when He will drink it again with His Apostles, and all those invited to the "marriage supper of the Lamb".

Christian faith, ituttut

 

Romans, chapter 7


"3": So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

"4": Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

How can the bride come down from Heaven, except it first go up to Heaven if it is the believers in Christ, that is the bride?

 

Amen, Brother Brother Bob -- Preach it!

 

Brother Bob,

You ask:
"How can the bride come down from Heaven, except it first go up to Heaven if it is the believers in Christ, that is the bride"?
________________________________________________

That's exactly what will happen on the Lastday!

Each of the 7 (10 by extension) things that
"has come" (haylthen; aorist indicative) relates
to the Day "Christ comes WITH ALL the Saints"
from heaven. (Seven things from 6:17 to 19:7).

Six of these 7 things occur on the Lastday in a definite sequence or series of events that occur between Noon and Twilight of the Day Christ appears and the "tribes of earth mourn" while
the angels are "gathering the elect out of all
extremities of the heavenS". Matt.24:30-31;
Amos 8:9; Zech.14:5-7.

Zech.14:5 reveals the same as Paul in I Thess.
3:13. All the Saints will come with Jesus
from heaven on the Day of the Lord.

In order for that to be literally true, Jesus
will first "raise up every/all believers and
gather them together above" (episunago) from
earth TO heaven on the last day". John 6:38-40; Mark 13:27. (He gathers the elect and He sends the angels; both the gathering and sending are 3rd person singular; episunaxie; apostelei).

Note the order: Jesus "gathers the elect from
earth TO heaven" so that ALL the Saints are
glorified and wedded to the Lamb at the
"Synagog" in heaven, i.e., the meeting place;
2 Thess.2:1. Mark 13:27.

There is a short space of time between Mark
13:27 and Matt.24:30-31 for the tribes of
earth to "mourn".

It is during this time that two billion people on earth have their final chance to join the
"tribes of earth who mourn". In a 50-50 ratio
of those who are taken and those who are left,
two billion people may be "kept alive" to
fulfill the promise of Jesus in Luke 17:33.

All the Jews will "mourn and beg to escape
God's wrath and to stand before the Son of
Man". Rom.ll:25-26. That number will bring 5 million Jews into their promised "redemption" (Luke 21:28) and also into possession of their Millennial Kingdom. Luke 21:31; Zech.13:8-9.

These Jews are not part of the Bride of the
Lamb since they will be saved too late for
the wedding of ALL the Saints gathered to
heaven moments earlier. They will be GUESTS at the wedding supper of the Lamb on earth.

Intuttut has no evidence to support his theory
that these Jews will be the Bride of the Lamb.
They will be saved too late to be glorified.

Further evidence from my studies supports the
fact that all 7 (10) things that "have come"
on the Day of the Lord, while each succeeds
one another, all of them must occur within the six hours between the darkness of the sun at Noon and the return of light at Twilight of that "unique day known only to the Lord". Zech.14:6-7.

Mel www.lastday.net