Episcopal Church Officially Promotes Idol Worship

Glen;
I can tell that you are sincere. You state you are seeking truth. This is a good thing. However, one problem in your quest is that you redefine words to fit your own understanding rather than letting Scripture define words for you.
Rather you ought to submit to Scripture.
Prov. 3:5-6 makes it very clear that we are not to lean on our own understanding.

When it comes to prayer, the Scriptures clearly direct us to pray TO God alone. Phil. 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

Here, the definition of prayer is given. It is a request. It is giving thanks. It is supplication. And it is to be made unto God alone. Not some other person. Your human reasoning aside, you cannot wiggle out of the clear direction we are given here in this passage.

In His service;
Jim

 

I know a familiar spirit was a demon. As I said, it was supposedly the spirit of a familiar person, and that the mediums claimed to communicate with them, just as the dictionary you quoted said they professed to call up the dead. So if that was a demon then, then when you "supposedly", "claim" or "profess" to pray to Mary or the saints, guess what?

 

Article about priests repenting

Thought this would be useful for the discussion

 

Eric,

The Christian Dictionary states,

You said,

That's not what is stated. The dictionary says that a "familiar" is a demon...not the spirit of a familiar person. The sorcerers and necromancers called up the spirits of the dead "to answer questions" through the power of these demons. The demons "inspired the sorcerers and sorcerers were regarded as vessels containing the inspiring demon.

You've mistakenly or purposely (only you know which) twisted the definition to fit a preconceived bias against Catholic prayer.

Asking a saint to pray for me is in no way anything like consulting a sorcerer who possess a demon and uses that demon to call up the dead to answer questions of any sort.

Not the same. Nope. Uh-uh, no how, no way.

 

Er...I thought this thread was about the ECUSA's unofficial liturgy involving raisin cakes being offered to the Queen of Heaven, and whether that's idol worship (I think it is FWIW) not about Catholic vs Protestant Dead Horses. Can we stick to the OP ( if you want to rehash all the old RC V Prot arguments, can we have a new thread to do that)?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

The article doesn't say that the word "familiar" refers to a demon, and not the dead person. That's an English translation word, that was added (in those uses, it does not even have a corresponding Heb. word or number in Strong's) So the translators called it "familiar" based on the English understanding of the word, to distingush that type f spirit from others. But that's beside the point. Any dead person someone claims to communicate with IS a demon, so it's the same thing either way!

 

You have not made your case. So if the "cloud of witnesses" refers to the saints, where does it say in that passage to contact them or pray to them?

I am not using the word prayer to mean worship. I am pointing out that we are told to pray to God through Christ, not through others. And when a live person is praying for someone, that is not the same as asking a dead person to pray for you.

 

Eric,

It's funny how we can both read the same thing and come out with entirely different meanings.

Let me try another source. From a site called Got Questions.Org

.

It seems that this source also thinks as I do. Familiar spirits are demons. Not souls of those who have died in Christ who happen to be 'familiar' to us.

Matt, I'm sorry that I seemed to have hijacked this topic and sent it off onto another tangent.
Mea culpa.

Back on topic;

It seems that the Episcopal Church isn't to blame here at all. It seems an errant priest and his wife are at the base of this whole thing.

It also looks like the person has been rebuked and has since resigned from the priesthood.

If he has truly repented, then God has forgiven him. Can I do less?

Aloha and God Bless

 

We're getting hung up on the word familiar. In any case, the mediums claimed it was the spirit of a dead person, and yet we know they were really demons. Whether the English [added] translational word "familir" referred to "familiar person" or "a type of demon" in not the point. The Bible tells us such are demons, [whatever we call them], and should be avoided. I'm not the one saying it was ever really a familiar person. But it is the side you seem to be arguing for that is claiming to be speaking to familiar people. (that they are Mary, saints, etc). The Bible still says the same thing: "should not a people seek to their God...?

 

Eric,

Actually, we are not getting hung up on any word.

The problem here is that you are equating the souls of the "dead in Christ" with demons.

I sincerely hope that when you die, you wont be a demon.

I also believe that those who have "died in Christ" are not demons but are close to the throne of God and will pray for me.

Those prayers of the saints, I believe, hold prayers for me because I asked them to pray for me.

Aloha and God Bless

 

NO, NO, NO!!! The dead in Christ don't BECOME demons. (as I said; I'm not the one saying it was ever really a familiar person.) But the spirits mediums speak to who claim to be those dead souls ARE demons! That was the point. CLAIMing to be something and actually being something are two different things.