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Scripture: the Communication of God’s Word

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Carson Weber, Nov 6, 2002.

  1. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Thank you for that admission.

    You have no reason to claim a "historical Baptist church" other than your opinion.

    This is much like what the local Baptist Pastor once said to me. "We read the Bible and we imagine what a church was like back then."

    It's imagination based on preconceived ideas and beliefs, read into the Bible by someone looking for justification for their beliefs.

    Ron
     
  2. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    Actually, there's a Baptist in the N.T. John the Baptist mentioned in the Bible. What isn't mentioned is Pope, sacrament, Catholic, magesterium, purgatory, holy water, infant baptism, celibate priests, prayer to Mary, human infallability...etc
     
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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  4. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Hi Brother Curtis,

    I thought I'd take up your challenge and show you how Catholic doctrine is indeed very Biblical.

    If you would like to purchase an easy reference text that Patrick Madrid put together, I suggest "Where Is That in the Bible?":

    http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=170W22XR18&isbn=0879736933

    "Actually, there's a Baptist in the N.T. John the Baptist mentioned in the Bible."

    "Baptist" is just a name. John is called "John the Baptist" because he preached a baptism of repentance, a baptism that couldn't give the Holy Spirit.

    I urge you to read Acts 19:1-6.

    What isn't mentioned is Pope

    Pope is just a term for the successor of St. Peter, who was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven as the Prime Minister of the King; Compare Isiah 22:20-22 with Matthew 16:16-19.

    sacrament

    Sacrament is simply a word that designates a symbol that gives the grace that it symbolizes.

    Examples in the Bible of matter that conveys grace by the power of God (not magically):

    Jesus' garment healed the sick: Matt 9:20-22; Peter's shadow: Acts 5:15; And Paul's handkerchiefs/aprons: Acts 19:12; Blind man healed after Jesus' saliva is mixed with dirt and applied to his eyes and rinsed away: John 9:6-7.

    We have the Eucharist: Mt 26:26-27; Mk 14:22,24; Lk 22:19-20; 1 Cor 10:24-25; 1 Cor 11:26-30; Jn 6:32-58; Acts 2:42

    Reconciliation: Jn 20:22-23

    Regenerative baptism: Acts 2:38, 22:16, 1 Pet 3:21, 1 Cor 6:11, Titus 3:5

    Anointing with oil for healing: James 5:14

    Laying-on of hands:

    --to confer ordination, commissioning:
    Acts 6:6, 13:3, 1 Tim 4:14, 2 Tim 1:6

    --for the initial outpouring of the Holy
    Spirit: Acts 8:17-19, 13:3, 19:6

    --effecting healing: Mark 6:5, Luke 13:13,
    Acts 9:17-18, 28:8

    Catholic

    Which is simple a term that designates "the Church". We could call the Church "Boogawooga", and it wouldn't make a difference.

    magesterium

    Turn to Acts 15 to read about the Magisterium in council. Turn to Matthew 18:18 to read about Rabinnic authority being given to the Apostles by Jesus.

    purgatory

    Lk 12:59; 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7; Mt 5:25-26 speak of temporary agony.
    Heb 12:6-11 speaks of God's painful discipline.
    Mt 12:32 speaks of forgiveness in the age to come.
    Rev 21:27 ... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
    Heb 12:23 ... souls in heaven are perfect.
    Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14 ... "extra" suffering is required beyond forgiveness of sins.

    infant baptism

    Whole households were baptized: Acts 2:38-39; Acts 16:15, 16:33, 18:8; 1 Cor 1:16

    Baptism is how we are born again and die to sin: Jn 3:5; Rom 6:4

    Baptism replaces circumcision, Col 2:11-12, which was almost always performed on infants on the 8th day after birth.

    celibate priests

    Jesus tells us that men will forgo marital relations for the sake of his Bride, the Kingdom, like eunuchs in the Davidic Kingdom took care of the King's concubines: Matthew 19.

    prayer to Mary

    Mary is given to the beloved disciple as his mother, foreshadowing our reception of Mary as our own Mother in John 19:26-27. And, at the end of Rev. 12, the mother of Jesus is the mother of all who follow Jesus.

    human infallability

    Cf. Mt 16:16-19, where Jesus tells Peter that the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church. Plus, the Scriptures themselves were written by humans, and you claim them to be infallible. So, your argument disproves the inspiration of New Testament scripture to begin with.

    God bless,

    Carson

    [ November 13, 2002, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
     
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Pope is not a term for the successor of Peter, but is purely a Catholic term. The office itself is a farce. In its sordid history, even a woman was a pope. Check:
    http://www.webspawner.com/users/click/

    It doesn't say much for the history of the popes does it?
    BTW, your concept of the "Keys to the kingdom," is highly flawed. The keys are simply the key to knowledge, as Jesus himself acknowledged. He rebuked the Pharisees for locking up the keys of knowledge from the common people. The key of knowledge is of course the knowledge of the gospel that Christ alone saves. This wonderful message the disciples had and were commanded to go into all the world and preach it to every creature. They had the key (the gospel), not just Peter--all the apostles.

    It is an unbiblical concept. There is no such word found in the Bible. The Bible speaks of ordinances, not sacraments.

    These signs and wonders were done in the times of the Apostles. If you can replicate them I am sure that you sure will find a willing audience among many volunteers just from the Baptist Board. Can you make a blind man see again using your saliva and a little dirt? Can you heal people with actual physical infirmities (broken bones, for example) just with your handkerchief? Please put on a show for us.
    Like Helen already mentioned, the Catholic Church has no problem dealing in those things that are clearly occultic in nature, or in the paranormal. They think nothing of it. Magic waters that heal, (blessed by the priest of course), is just one example of what I mean. There are many others, not to mention the many apparitions that occur on a regular basis.

    Again, there is no such word in the Bible. The Bible command us to "remember" the Lord's death by observing the ordinance of the Lord's Table. There is no eucharist. That's just more hocus-pocus.

    This is one of the early heresies of the church. Baptism does not save, it only gets you wet. It is a work of man, not of God. It comes after salvation, not before. It is quite futile in giving it to an infant.
    DHK
     
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Here is some more of your post Carson"
    The word "catholic" simply means universal. I've used it many times outside of religious circles. The trouble lies in the fact that the Catholic Church is not the Lord's Universal Church.

    You have got to be kidding! Right? There is no magesterium in the Bible, nor any precedent for one. The council held at Jerusalem does in no way resemble a magesterium. You have really got to stretch your imagination there. The Magesterium has as much Biblical foundation to it as Mohammed and the "Rightly-Guided Caliphs." There is truth mixed with error in both.

    Are you sure you want to go here?? You have referred to ten different references and haven't done justice to any one of them. How about taking all of them one by one, quoting them, and showing exactly how each one in its context refers to purgatory. I guarantee you that you can't do it.
    DHK
     
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Carson, You really don't like sound exegesis of Scripture do you?
    DHK
     
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