The two witnesses... TWO candlesticks...?

The two witnesses of Rev 11 are killed in Jerusalem, and they stay dead for 3and one half days, till they are brought back to life.

 

Wopik said:The two witnesses of Rev 11 are killed in Jerusalem, and they stay dead for 3and one half days, till they are brought back to life.

And your point is???

 

Jesus Is Lord,

the first woe is the releasing of strong delusion.

the second woe is the introduction of the two witnesses

what your not seeing within the revelation is that when they died in the street of sodom and Gomorrah.

sodom and Gomorrah was the carnal body of the overcomer.

When they died and were resurrected into heaven, the overcomers soul was resurrected also.

correlate these statements with believing that Jesus is Lord over death in the overcomers life.

the third woe is the "judgement of the dead".

remember that judgement is towards the "quick and the dead". The "quick" were judged as the two witnesses die and are resurrected with the soul of the overcomer (elect).

the judgement of the dead is at the second resurrection. the beginning of the next age.

(another clue is after the moment of silence and the censor containing the prayers of the saints are cast into the earth.)
the prayers relates to the ruling and reigning of the elect..or fulfilling the will of the Father through the Elect.)

[ October 15, 2004, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

JesusisLord saidHis point is that both are killed. Me2 wrote that one of the witnesses would be the Spirit of Christ. You can´t kill the Spirit of Christ.

Well that explains it. I have stopped reading Me2's post very close because they are so far out!!!

And of course she is wrong! You're right, you can't kill the Spirit of Christ.

On the other hand if the 2 witnesses are Enoch and Elijah reserected in the flesh then it all makes sense!!

Peace,

Tam

 

I am not sure why people think the end-time witnesses have to be Enoch and Elijah (2 dead men, IMO).

God uses different witnesses at different times. God used Moses and his brother Aaron to witness to Pharoah.

Doesn't it say the end-time witnesses will come in the spirit of Elijah's word.

Elisha asked for a DOUBLE PORTION of Elijah's SPIRIT (2kings 2:9).

Elijah took off his coat and smote the waters, and they divided (2kins 2:8).

Elijah ask the Lord to send fire down from heaven to consume the sacrifice (1king 18:36-38).

The two witnesses will call fire down from heaven, too (Rev 11:5).

In the days of their prophecy, it shall not rain (Rev 11:6) --- just like in the days of Elijah (1 kings 17:1; 18:1-2).

 

Hi,

Glad to see that Tamborine lady is awake to what Scriptures tell about the two witnesses. Your arguments based on Scripture will help you recognize what is sound meaning and what is not.
If you go to Woak.org (discussion board) you will find discussions on the two witnesses.

Greetings
roffa

 

Jesus said John the baptist was the Elijah that was to come (they did not reccognize Him)

Jesus also said that John (One born of woman) was a LAMP that burned and gave light for a time. This light is as a Testimony.Jesus also said He did not accept mans testimony but there was a Greater testimony then that of Johns.

He put it this way... Of those BORN OF WOMAN there is none greater than John the baptist BUT HE who is LEAST in the Kingdom of God is GREATER THEN JOHN.

John and Paul are as two great Lights One is as the Moon in Genesis to rule the Night (Until the light came as Christ is seen leading others out from under John and following Christ=True Light men should walk by).

Moon turning to Blood is as John=Beheaded for the Testimony to Jesus Christ.

Paul is as the Sun which represents the light of the gospel. He is GREATER the JOHN because His Testimony was not taught him of man but the Spirit of God by revelation.

Symbolically theres much more in this. But I see the Two witness being John (baptised into repentance) and Paul who was not sent to baptise but preach the gospel as Paul confirmed.

The Stars represent those seated inheavenly places because they believed Pauls gospel and shine as a light in the dark world.

According to the Lords Words to which I consider above all, He seems to indicate the two great Lights as being these two ministries one the lesser light as John and the other the greater light seen in Paul (Light to the gentiles)

The law and the prophets prophesied UNTIL JOHN, since then the Kingdom of God is preached.


God bless

Seth3

 

My answer to Seth3:

When you say that "Jesus said John the baptist was the Elijah that was to come (they did not reccognize Him)," you cannot possibly mean that the prophecy in Rev 11:3 on the two witnesses was then fulfilled, that is BEFORE IT WAS EVEN COME!

When Jesus says that HE who is LEAST in the Kingdom of God is GREATER THAN JOHN, even though there is none greater BORN OF WOMAN than John, he surely does not mean to say that John was outside of the Kingdom of God, but rather that the child brought forth by Zion in fulfilment of Isa 66:7 is greater than John, for he was born by the Word and Spirit, being the pillar of God's tempel (Rev 3:12).

"Before she (Zion) travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a MAN CHILD. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."

What you say about John and Paul being as two great lights, the one being as the moon in Genesis to rule the night, and also being the moon turning to blood when he was beheaded, you are in fact distorting scriptures. John has nothing to do with the moon turning into blood, a prophecy that will be fulfilled in the time of the sounding of the sixth trumpet, which is long after the time of John the baptist. You should be careful not to come up with such unbiblical notions.

When you say that Paul is as the sun which represents the light of the gospel and is thus GREATER than JOHN because his Testimony was not taught him of man but the Spirit of God by revelation, you are again conjuring up a far-fetched meaning of what Jesus really said. You do not seem to know the question Jesus himself put to the unbelieving Jews in Matthew 21:25-26, saying:

"The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet."

We see clearly from Scripture that also John was not taught by men!

You miss the point even more when you go on saying the following wrong thing, which is a denial of the prophecy in Rev 11:3 on coming two witnesses:

"Symbolically theres much more in this. But I see the Two witness being John (baptised into repentance) and Paul who was not sent to baptise but preach the gospel as Paul confirmed.

According to the Lords Words to which I consider above all, He seems to indicate the two great Lights as being these two ministries one the lesser light as John and the other the greater light seen in Paul (Light to the gentiles)."

Listen man, the two witnesses belong to a much later time than did John and Paul!

When Jesus says that the law and the prophets prophesied UNTIL JOHN, since then the Kingdom of God is preached, he for sure did not mean to say that the OT prophecies did not foretell things to come even after the time of John. Believing that is a fallacy, for Isaiah, for instance, foretells a new earth and a new heaven. What Jesus meant to say was that henceforth from the time of John the Spirit would work through the Son. So do not go astray in your fantacies.

Greetings
roffa

 

Your teachings are from men.

Where do you think the MOON sits? IN HEAVEN So its not a question of whether its from heaven its clearly seen as John who to me represents the Moon is seated. Your missing the point.

There are Two Great lights Moon and Sun, if you keep looking into the sky waiting for red physical DNA blood to cover it your completely robbing yourself of the Spiritual truths. They also have an INNER meaning as well.

The Sun being darkened by the SMOKE is the everlasting gospel being hid from the SMOKE OF THE PIT. Who is a SMOKE in Gods nostrils? Look it up. Scripture defines not men.

Besides John was the Elijah in the Spirit and power of it Given by God Himself but he still was ONE born of woman scripture says. John had to send his disciples to ask if Christ was the one who was sent or should they expect another. John knew the book and could only tell by the signs God gave Him. Jesus said REPORT BACK TO JOHN.


Don't give me "Fantasies" as if you think you know anything of great value I haven't considered.

I'm sure all of Revelation is very defined and dated by some but I don't see it the same.

Christ is our everlasting Light in us. No need for Sun or Moon to shine on it the Glory of God gives us His Light.


God Bless

Seth3

 

Since the Apostle John is writing about the Temple [Revelation 11:1] and he is to measure it, then this sanctuary of God had to be future to his life-span.

The forty two months will be the 3 ½ years that Jerusalem and the rest of the world will have to undergo the Great Tribulation sanctioned and decreed by Almighty God.

The 'two witnesses' and the 'two olive trees' are not Biblical covenants as in O.T. and N.T., because verse five shows them to be human beings. 'If any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.' This evil person cannot, in like manner, kill the covenants. Covenants cannot 'shut Heaven that it rain not in the days of their prophecy.' 'Dead bodies' has to point to some human or living creature. [vs.8] The bodies will not be placed in the grave, which is most unusual, to that area of the world, namely Jerusalem. [8c]

Verse then indicates they are prophets. They will preach during the Great Tribulation about turning from sin unto the Lord and the Second Coming of the Lord and His Great White Throne Judgment, future to these prophet's time.

The days of the supernatural are not over yet. These two men will ascend into Heaven like our Lord did from Mount Olivet, which was only a sabbath's days journey from Jerusalem. [Acts 1:12]

How can people from different nations and various heritages 'see these dead bodies'? [vs.9] Because of the modern technology of our 21st. century.

Revelation 11:19 says that there was also a Temple in Heaven and there was 'the ark of the testament.' Interesting. Hebrews 9:4 speaks of the 'ark of the covenant'that was in the Holy of Holies for the Jewish believers in the Lord Jehovah as they traveled or in the Temple in Jerusalem. The KJV's 'testament' in the Greek is the word, {diathekas} meaning, His contract, or covenant; this one was in Heaven.

The only two human beings who have not died physically are Elijah [II Kings 1:10] and Enoch [Jude vs.14] the prophets. They will revisit the earth, during the Great Tribulation, with a special message straight from the Lord, Who is now in Heaven. During the Tribulation period even these two prophets will die in the streets of Jerusalem. [Revelation 11:8] God has said, that it appointed of (all) men once to die, and after this the judgment. [Hebrews 9:27] God did not make any exception for these two mighty men of God, called the prophets of the Lord. If they do not have to die physically, [9:27] would be an untruth from the lips of our Lord.

Dr. Merrill C. Tenney, Ph.D., says that ' . . . John, the son of Zebedee, probably wrote it about 95 A.D. in the reign of Domitian. The Western church accepted it as canonical; the Eastern church did not receive it until about the year 500.'

Notice, there is no mention of the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., which we are sure that the Apostle John would have at least, made mention of this horrendous, dreadful and bloody event, especially himself being a Jew/Israelite.

Regards,
Berrian, Th.D.

 

My 2. answer to Seth3:

You ask me:
"Where do you think the MOON sits? IN HEAVEN So its not a question of whether its from heaven its clearly seen as John who to me represents the Moon is seated. Your missing the point."

My answer:
What are you really trying to say? Do you not know that in Rev. 6:12 it is said that the moon became as blood, and this is surely not the (natural) moon that is mentioned in Rev. 21:23: "And the city had no need of the SUN, neither of the MOON", but the moon which is mentioned in Rev. 12:1, and which is God's law or the one street of pure gold in New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:21). This moon could not be John the baptist either, for the book of Revelation foretells things to come after the time of John the baptist, as can be seen from Rev. 1:1. Do not miss this point!

You say:
"There are Two Great lights Moon and Sun, if you keep looking into the sky waiting for red physical DNA blood to cover it your completely robbing yourself of the Spiritual truths. They also have an INNER meaning as well."

My answer:
Do not impute meanings to me that I have not put forward and do not advocate. Here you are babbling unbiblical things only, not what I believe in.

You say:
"The Sun being darkened by the SMOKE is the everlasting gospel being hid from the SMOKE OF THE PIT. Who is a SMOKE in Gods nostrils? Look it up. Scripture defines not men."

My answer:
Stop a bit in your fantacies! First of all there is no smoke going to darken the EVERLASTING gospel, for otherwise it would not bear the name of EVERLASTING. The gospel preached by the apostles was NEVER called EVERLASTING, for the apostles knew that their church and her gospel should be overcome by the beast according to Rev. 13:7. The name of EVERLASTING is applied to the gospel AFTER the time of the falling-away, and it comes with the angel of Rev. 14:6, who is exactly the same one as mentioned in Rev. 7:2, the one having the seal of the Living God. He also is the one mentioned in Rev. 12:2, having a little book in his hand. In short, this angel is the man child of Rev. 12:5, for he is the one to come backe after the falling-away with the morning star (Rev 2:28). Do not miss these biblical facts! Smoke means many things in scriptural language, but I leave this topic for now, rather keeping myself to what is the essence here.

You say:
"Besides John was the Elijah in the Spirit and power of it Given by God Himself but he still was ONE born of woman scripture says. John had to send his disciples to ask if Christ was the one who was sent or should they expect another. John knew the book and could only tell by the signs God gave Him. Jesus said REPORT BACK TO JOHN."

My answer:
So what is all this meant to mean? Of course John the baptist was Elijah spiritually, but still you are far off the mark saying that he also is the moon.

You say:
"Don't give me "Fantasies" as if you think you know anything of great value I haven't considered."

My answer:
My words are no fantasies and can therefore be corroborated with all Scripture. If you, as you really suggest here, know all that I possibly know from Scripture, then you for sure can tell the true meaning of Rev. 14:13:

"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the DEAD which DIE IN THE LORD FROM HENCEFORTH: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

How can a dead person die, and WHY are those dead mentioned BLESSED ONLY IF THEY DIE IN THE LORD HENCEFORTH? This should suffice to bridle your haughtiness, for you do not know who you are writing agains.

You say:
"I'm sure all of Revelation is very defined and dated by some but I don't see it the same."

My answer:
What do you mean? Do you mean that you can joggle with the word of God after the itching of your own conceitedness?

You say:
"Christ is our everlasting Light in us. No need for Sun or Moon to shine on it the Glory of God gives us His Light."

My answer:
If Christ were your everlasting light, then you would not twist the scriptures that foretell the coming of the two witnesses.

Greetings
roffa

 

To "tamborine lady":

You say:
"On the other hand if the 2 witnesses are Enoch and Elijah reserected in the flesh then it all makes sense!!"

My answer:
The two witnesses are not any of the holy men who have lived before, for in Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 the following thing is said, which altoghether settles the case:

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.
Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; NEVER AGAIN WILL THEY HAVE A PART IN ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS UNDER THE SUN."

Do not argue against Scripture! The two witnesses appear in the beginning of the sixth trumpet's time, or in other words, before the four angels are set loose to kill the ungodly.

Greetings
roffa

 

Roffa,

The lady is right and has real spiritual insight.

Hardly; the whole point of the Enoch and Elijah is that at their departing they never died a human death, which is required by God for all sinners or saints. They have not yet gone through the passage way of death into Heaven, but they will in the Great Tribulation; they are pictured ascending into Heaven like our Lord did from Olivet. [Revelation 11:12]

God speaking through the writer of Ecclesiastes makes his valid point. But, do you remember loved ones who have died before you? I am rather sure that you do think about their good or bad example while they were here on earth. Your BOLD PRINT is true of those who have either died in Christ or who have gone into destruction. These two prophets are the exception because they never went ' . . . through the valley of the shadow of death.' Do you see the difference?

Actually, Revelation 10:7 speaks of the judgment brought on earth during the Great Tribulation by the seventh angel of God. The Bible does not say that Enoch and Elijah have to appear on day one of the Great Tribulation. Here is your mistake. Not only will these two O.T. prophets preach but also the seventh angel of verse seven will make his declarations of God's truth, probably announced in the air will be heard by and ' . . . before many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings. Enoch and Elijah will preach on the ground in Jerusalem as cited in Revelation 11:8.

Multiple thousands---perhaps millions of people will have died before these two prophets appear in the holy city to proclaim their message sent by them directly from God Almighty. Part of Enoch's message has been preached to us, as it were, already in Jude verse fourteen through sixteen and will be one of the topics in the era of the future Great Tribulation.

If the Great Tribulation has been in the distant past or is presently going on, why have we not seen these horrendous, dreadful judgments from Revelation chapters 6-11 in our day? The reason: The Great Tribulation is a future catastrophe, disaster and human tragedy to our time, on all lost souls.

The church will be in Heaven [I Thessalonians 4:16-17] at the time of this unleashing of God's vengeance on the wicked.


Berrian, Th.D.

 

Lets title this "The confusion of Roffa"


Seth asks
"Where do you think the MOON sits? IN HEAVEN So its not a question of whether its from heaven its clearly seen as John who to me represents the Moon is seated. Your missing the point."

Roffa replies,
What are you really trying to say? Do you not know that in Rev. 6:12 it is said that the moon became as blood, and this is surely not the (natural) moon that is mentioned in Rev. 21:23: "And the city had no need of the SUN, neither of the MOON", but the moon which is mentioned in Rev. 12:1, and which is God's law or the one street of pure gold in New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:21). This moon could not be John the baptist either, for the book of Revelation foretells things to come after the time of John the baptist, as can be seen from Rev. 1:1. Do not miss this point!

Seth replies,

SYMBOLS ROFFA!!! MOON IS The ((FIRST ORDER OF THINGS)) the WOMAN ((CLOTHED IN THE SUN))) WITH THE MOON (((BENEATH HER FEET))))

PURE GOLD=FAITH In Scripture your FAITH IS TRIED AS "GOLD" WISH PERISHES

Seth replies
"There are Two Great lights Moon and Sun, if you keep looking into the sky waiting for red physical DNA blood to cover it your completely robbing yourself of the Spiritual truths. They also have an INNER meaning as well."

Roffa replies
Do not impute meanings to me that I have not put forward and do not advocate. Here you are babbling unbiblical things only, not what I believe in.


Seth answers,

YOU IMPUTED THE MOON WAS THE LAW So YOU tell me WHO is IMPUTING ANYTHING (To WHICH I SAID YES!!! THE OLD ORDER IS PASSED AWAY IT RULES ONLY THE NIGHT NOT THE DAY (SPIRITUAL PRINCIPLE) WHATEVER THE LAW SAYS IT SAYS TO THOSE ((UNDER IT))) THE WOMAN HAS THE MOON UNDER (HER FEET))

You have to READ SCRIPTURE ROFFA

Seth says,
"The Sun being darkened by the SMOKE is the everlasting gospel being hid from the SMOKE OF THE PIT. Who is a SMOKE in Gods nostrils? Look it up. Scripture defines not men."

Roffa says
Stop a bit in your fantacies! First of all there is no smoke going to darken the EVERLASTING gospel, for otherwise it would not bear the name of EVERLASTING. The gospel preached by the apostles was NEVER called EVERLASTING, for the apostles knew that their church and her gospel should be overcome by the beast according to Rev. 13:7. The name of EVERLASTING is applied to the gospel AFTER the time of the falling-away, and it comes with the angel of Rev. 14:6, who is exactly the same one as mentioned in Rev. 7:2, the one having the seal of the Living God.

Seth3 replies

Isaiah 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am HOLIER THAN THOU. THESE ARE A SMOKE in my nose, A FIRE that burneth all the day.

Looks like God defines Roffa calling his words mere fantasies you haven’t a leg to stand on really.

SMOKE FROM THE PIT???? Hmmm… We have WHO IS THE SMOKE=SELF RIGHTEOUS

Self righteous? lets see another word from scripture defining a Pharisee.

Mat 23:24 Ye] blind guides Mat 23:17 Ye] fools and blind

Luke 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the PIT?


Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a SMOKE OUT OF THE PIT, as the smoke of a great furnace (TESTING YOU!); and THE SUN AND THE AIR were DARKENED by* REASON* OF THE (((SMOKE))) OF THE PIT.

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise


Isaiah 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD SHALL BE UNTO THEE an EVERLASTING LIGHT, and thy God thy glory.

BUT!!!!

2Corinth 4:4 the god of this world hath BLINDED THE MINDS of them which BELIEVE NOT, lest the LIGHT OF THE GLORIOUS GOSPEL OF CHRIST, who is the image of God, should SHINE UNTO THEM

Looks like SOMETHING BLOCKING THE SUN TO ME… I believe God referes to them as SMOKE!!! SCRIPTURE SHOWS ITS TRUE.

The SMOKE FROM THE PIT AND WHO LEADS THEM THERE IS PRETTY OBVIOUS ACCORDING TO GODS WORD NOT MY FANTANSIES (YOUR WRONG ROFFA). He’s forgiving though, I would apologize if I were YOU. Blind men don’t know they are blind, neither do those who hold their hands or are led by them.

Roffa says,

He also is the one mentioned in Rev. 12:2, having a little book in his hand. In short, this angel is the man child of Rev. 12:5, for he is the one to come backe after the falling-away with the morning star (Rev 2:28). Do not miss these biblical facts! Smoke means many things in scriptural language, but I leave this topic for now, rather keeping myself to what is the essence here.

Oh please DO roffa until you know what you are talking about. You eat the scroll (Eat his words they taste sweet in your mouth and turn bitter in your belly this is seen in numbers as the Preist discovers the unfaithful wife her belly swells her THIGH ROTS its SYMBOLIC the STENGTH OF MAN is His Legs. God does not delight in the strength of a horse=THEIR HORSES ARE FLESH NOT SPIRIT.

Please Catch up on your reading and do us all a favor.

Seth3 replies,
"Besides John was the Elijah in the Spirit and power of it Given by God Himself but he still was ONE born of woman scripture says. John had to send his disciples to ask if Christ was the one who was sent or should they expect another. John knew the book and could only tell by the signs God gave Him. Jesus said REPORT BACK TO JOHN."

Roffa says
So what is all this meant to mean? Of course John the baptist was Elijah spiritually, but still you are far off the mark saying that he also is the moon.

Seth3 responds,

Well hmmm… I’m not too sure… if the first ORDER YOU SAY is THE LAW and I see in Type as John WHO WAS BEHEADED FOR HIS TESTIMONY I certainly see this MOON ALREADY TURNED INTO BLOOD. IT IS A LIGHT AS JOHN WAS A LIGHT AS THE LAW WAS A LIGHT for (((A TIME))) THAT GAVE LIGHT. THERES A GREATER LIGHT AS THE SUN (PAUL is SYMBOLIC OF THIS LIGHT) By REVELATION a GREATER LIGHT AND TESTIMONY WE BELIEVE IN AND WALK BY ITS LIGHT. CHRIST ((IN US)) I think HE IS EVERLASTING wouldn’t YOU AGREE???

Seth says
"Don't give me "Fantasies" as if you think you know anything of great value I haven't considered."

Roffa says,
My words are no fantasies and can therefore be corroborated with all Scripture. If you, as you really suggest here, know all that I possibly know from Scripture, then you for sure can tell the true meaning of Rev. 14:13:

Seth3 replies,

I think I’ve proven otherwise Roffa. What a SINGLE VERSE WITHIN ((YOUR)) CONTEXT? I already have a thread on dying in the Lord read it maybe you might learn how to.

"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the DEAD which DIE IN THE LORD FROM HENCEFORTH: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

How can a dead person die, and WHY are those dead mentioned BLESSED ONLY IF THEY DIE IN THE LORD HENCEFORTH? This should suffice to bridle your haughtiness, for you do not know who you are writing agains.

Roffa you die in Christ, Paul died DAILY, Death worked in Him so LIFE might work in others. You are BAPTISED INTO THE DEATH OF THE LORD THAT THE LIFE OF CHRIST BE REVEALED IN YOU. If we SUFFER WITH HIM WILL SHALL REIGN WITH HIM.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Seth3 says
"I'm sure all of Revelation is very defined and dated by some but I don't see it the same."

Roffa replies
What do you mean? Do you mean that you can joggle with the word of God after the itching of your own conceitedness?

Seth3 replies,

I’m sure I’m the one who is conceited with the puff up notions that exalt themselves up OVER THE KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST… Seems pretty CLEAR and from your own mouth (no less) I need not say more.

Seth3 relies
"Christ is our everlasting Light in us. No need for Sun or Moon to shine on it the Glory of God gives us His Light."

Roffa replies
If Christ were your everlasting light, then you would not twist the scriptures that foretell the coming of the two witnesses.

Seth3,

I think if Christ as an everlasting Light you would not think there need be another gospel to preach, I think you might be WALKING IN THE EVERLASTING LIGHT OF CHRIST WITHIN IF YOU BELIEVED IN THE ONE YOU HAVE.

If anyone preach ANOTHER GOSPEL??? Let Him be WHAT? What Gospel are you waiting for?


Galation 1:6 But though we, or an AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Hmmm… Looks like PAULS GOSPEL IS AS THE SUN HIS GOSPEL IS (((THIS EVERLASTING GOSPEL)))

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] WHICH WAS PREACHED TO EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS UNDER HEAVEN; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Roffa’s waiting FOR ANOTHER ONE!!! Well I think I know where YOU DO NOT STAND, You’ve made this OBVIOUS.

Paul was already seated in heavenly places its symbolic. He was the Minister as an agel which are ministering Spirits to serve those who were heirs of salvation. Paul DID THIS.

Your Looking for ANOTHER??? My GOODNESS are YOU a bit CONFUSED ROFFA


God Bless

Seth3

 

My 1. answer to Ray Berrian:

You say that the tamborine lady is right and has real spiritual insight when she writes that the 2 witnesses are Enoch and Elijah resurrected in the flesh. I must say that it surprises me to see how negligent you are of what the holy Scripture teaches us! First of all, in Heb. 11 holy people who lived in OT time are mentioned directly or indirectly, among them Enoch Heb. 11:5) and the prophets (Heb. 11:32), and though ALL THESE obtained a good report through faith, Scripture says, THEY DID NOT RECEIVE THE PROMISE, and notice especially what is said in Heb. 11:13 of them among whom Enoch belongs: "

ALL THESE PEOPLE were still living by faith WHEN THEY DIED. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth."

Scripture shows us that Enoch's being taken away is reckoned as DEATH, and Scripture has the final word, not you or any other person.

Secondly, when Elijah was taken up to heaven, this sure enough had to be reckoned as his bodily death, for his carnal body was translated, and even so, he still did not receive what was promised, as is said in Heb. 11:39. There can be no discrepancy here between 2 Kings 2 and Heb. 11, and Elijah too is among the prophets mentioned in Heb. 11:32.

You wrote:
"the whole point of the Enoch and Elijah is that at their departing they never died a human death, which is required by God for all sinners or saints."

My answer:
By your way of reasoning you are at the same time actually saying that the translation of those holy people who live and are fetched up by Jesus when he returns in person on the very last day, is not reckoned to be death, though it is, since their translation would otherwise mean that every person was not destined once to die. Scripture would thus, if your reasoning was sound, be contradictory. I will also remind you of one more IMPORTANT BIBLICAL FACT, namely that if Elijah and Enoch were taken into the invisible heaven where God is, then Heb. 11:39-40 is untrue, which it is of course not:

"And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
God having provided some better thing for us, THAT THEY (including Elijah and Enoch) WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT.

What all this means, is that these two saints are in the same spiritual realm as all other deceased saints, waiting for the great resurrection day together with them. No difference. They are not coming back to earth. What body should they, by the way, come back in? In angelic bodies? No way, for that would contradict the apostle Peter's word (1 Pet. 1:9-12):

"Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; WHICH THINGS THE ANGELS DESIRE TO LOOK INTO."

So leave out human figments about Elijah and Enoch, or Moses, for none of these men will ever take part in what is going to happen on earth henceforth.

You wrote:
"They have not yet gone through the passage way of death into Heaven,"

My answer:
Right, they have not gone into the invisible heaven of God, thus receiving the promise BEFORE US in contradiction of Scripture. They are in the waiting-chambres of heaven, where all the saints are until the resurrection day.

You wrote:
"but they will in the Great Tribulation; they are pictured ascending into Heaven like our Lord did from Olivet. [Revelation 11:12]"

My answer:
You are now talking like a madman, contradicting the holy Scriptures, for there will be NO BODILY RESURRECTION until on the very last day, as Jesus says himself. He knows for sure better than you! Read for instance John 6:40:

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY."

Remember that the last enemy to be overcome is death himself, as Paul the apostle teaches in 1 Corinthians 15:26:

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

Do not neglect this apostolic fact!

You wrote in answer to Eccl 9:5-6:

"God speaking through the writer of Ecclesiastes makes his valid point. But, do you remember loved ones who have died before you? I am rather sure that you do think about their good or bad example while they were here on earth."

My answer:
This has nothing to do with the topic!

You wrote:
"Your BOLD PRINT is true of those who have either died in Christ or who have gone into destruction. These two prophets are the exception because they never went ' . . . through the valley of the shadow of death.' Do you see the difference?"

My answer:
No, I do not see any difference, and I have already showed from Scripture that your theory of their coming back is unscriptural and wrong.

You wrote:
"Actually, Revelation 10:7 speaks of the judgment brought on earth during the Great Tribulation by the seventh angel of God."

My answer:
You are again twisting Scripture, for everybody who reads Rev 9:13-15 will see that the great tribulation, in which one third of Mankind is killed, happens in the time of the sixth trumpet. The angel of the seventh trumpet ushers in the time of Israel, when the woman (church of God) moves back to HER PLACE (Rev 12:14), Israel, and there shall the church of God live until the last day. By then will the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, as the apostle says in Rom. 11:35.

You wrote:
"The Bible does not say that Enoch and Elijah have to appear on day one of the Great Tribulation. Here is your mistake."

My answer:
Listen, I have not said that these to men shall appear at all, for such a belief is contradictory to the Bible. They will stay where they are until the resurrection day, never coming back to earth. By the way, the two witnesses will not be preaching in the Great Tribulation (Es. 24), but before, as is seen from Rev 7:2-3. Do not impute such opinions to me as I have never held!

You wrote:
"Not only will these two O.T. prophets preach but also the seventh angel of verse seven will make his declarations of God's truth, probably announced in the air will be heard by and ' . . . before many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings. Enoch and Elijah will preach on the ground in Jerusalem as cited in Revelation 11:8."

My answer:
Now you are talking against Scripture again, for no angel will ever preach or declare anything to peoples, nations, tongues, and kings, but the two witnesses, who are ordinary humans, will do so. Do not lie against Scripture! I will also underscore the fact that there will never be any Enoch or Elijah preaching in historical Jerusalem, for the town called "the great city" is Babylon in spiritual sense. Remember that the time of the sixth trumpet is the time when the fulness of Gentiles will come in, not the fulness of Jews. These biblical fact I can show from Scripture.

You wrote:
"Multiple thousands---perhaps millions of people will have died before these two prophets appear in the holy city to proclaim their message sent by them directly from God Almighty."

My answer:
No, you are wrong again, for God does not want people to die in sin, so he sends his witnesses before the grave things come true. Do you not remember Rev. 7:2-3?

You wrote:
"Part of Enoch's message has been preached to us, as it were, already in Jude verse fourteen through sixteen and will be one of the topics in the era of the future Great Tribulation."

My answer:
If you want to understand Jude 14-16 you should also read Psalm 149 and Matt. 19:28, comparing with 2 Thes. 2, then you wil possibly understand that the heavenly war of Rev. 12:7 is a war that goes on now on earth, and the result will be as foretold in Matt 8:12:

"But the CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Who are these children if not those who believe and teach false doctrines against Scripture?

You wrote:
"If the Great Tribulation has been in the distant past or is presently going on, why have we not seen these horrendous, dreadful judgments from Revelation chapters 6-11 in our day? The reason: The Great Tribulation is a future catastrophe, disaster and human tragedy to our time, on all lost souls."

My answer:
No, the great tribulation has not yet been, but is soon to come. Its contents are as foretold in Isa 24.

You wrote:
"The church will be in Heaven [I Thessalonians 4:16-17] at the time of this unleashing of God's vengeance on the wicked.
"

My answer:
You should know that 1 Thess. 4 will happen as laid down by the apostle in 1 Cor 15:52, that is AT THE LAST TRUMP, which means ON THE LAST DAY:

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

By no way can the resurrection of the saints happen in the time of the sixth trumpet, which is now, for there shall be blown one more trumpet, the seventh, which ushers in the time of Israel. (Rev. 11:15) Then also the Jews will accept Jesus as their promised Messiah, for the fulness of Gentiles have come in and the time of the Jews begun. Their time will last for 1260 years, as did the time of the Gentiles also. The socalled millennium consists of twice 1260 years, as everybody can see from Rev. 12.

In the grace of God
roffa

 

Although I disagree with the conclusions drawn by the classic Preterist J.S. Russell, I agree with his view on them being two literal individual men. He wrote:

Before proceeding further in the inquiry it may be well to notice the following remarks of Dr. Alford on the subject, with which we cordially agree:---

‘The two witnesses, etc. No solution has ever been given of this portion of the prophecy. Either the two witnesses are literal,---two individual men,---or they are symbolical,---two individuals taken as the concentration of principles and characteristics, and this either in themselves, or as representing men who embodied those principles and characteristics. . . . The article toiz seems as if the two witnesses were well known, and distinct in their individuality. The dusin is essential to the prophecy, and is not to be explained away. No interpretation can be right which does not, either in individuals, or in characteristic lines of testimony, retain and bring out this dualism.’

On the statement ‘clothed in sackcloth’ (in token of need of repentance and of approaching judgment), Alford says:---

‘Certainly this portion of the prophetic description strongly favours the individual interpretation. For, first, it is hard to conceive how whole bodies of men and churches could be thus described; and, secondly, the principal symbolical interpreters have left out, or passed very slightly, this important particular. One does not see how bodies of men who lived like other men (their being the victims of persecution in another matter) can be said to have prophesied clothed in sackcloth.’

Again, on the fifth verse:---

‘This whole description is most difficult to apply on the allegorical interpretation; as it that which follows, and, as might have been expected, the allegorists halt and are perplexed exceedingly. The double announcement here seems to stamp the literal sense, and the ei tiz and dei autun apoktanqhnai are decisive against any mere national application of the words. Individuality could not be more strongly indicated.’

Again, on the miraculous powers ascribed to the witnesses:---

‘All this points out the spirit and power of Moses, combined with that of Elias. And, undoubtedly, it is in these two directions that we must look for the two witnesses, or lines of witnesses. The one impersonates the law, the other the prophets. The one reminds us of the prophet whom God should raise up like unto Moses; the other of Elias the prophet, who should come before the great and terrible day of the Lord.’

 

Error correction:

Instead of (Rev. 11:15) there should be (Rom. 11:15 in the last paragraph of my 1. answer to Ray Berrian. Sorry about that.

greetings
roffa

 

I think we should just keep our own interpetation, God teaches. So Ya'll have fun now. Because I could care less being considered a reprobate in others eyes. I'm want more of Christ not doctrines. They may bless many but I think its fruitless to argue any further because I have neglected my household giving two cents for what others think.

God Bless Have fun and enjoy

Just lump me in with the transgressers I'm fine with that.

Seth3

 

Roffa,

You said,

We agree that Enoch is listed among the O.T. saints in Hebrews 11:5. Verse 13 means that they did not understand the new covenant, the Cross, regeneration, and other large doctrines. They did, however, know the Lord.

Right!

You are dead wrong here. Hebrews 11:5, even to a child, means that Enoch never died physically. I know this is a high hurdle for you, but strain and you will make it safely.

God took Enoch and Elijah to Heaven and they never died. They were given a spiritual body, like our Lord's, and are in the perfect joy and felicity of Heaven itself. They or no other O.T. or N.T. saints who die now are in a 'waiting place' or a 'holding tank' until the resurrection of the just. 'Absent from the body, present with the Lord.' [Philippians 1:23 & II Cor. 5:8]

The whole point of the Enoch and Elijah is that at their departing they
never died a human death, which is required by God for all sinners or
saints.

You confuse the meaning of Jesus when He speaks of the Last Day. This does not mean the Last Day of all human history. The 'last day' refers to the rapture of the church where only the 'dead in Christ' will rise, and not one sinner will rise. [I Thess. 4:16d]
These two prophets will preach their message in Jerusalem and will be killed by wicked hands and will ascend into Heaven as says, Revelation 11:12 c,d. After the seven years between the rapture and the Second Coming the two witnesses plus all the saints of Heaven will come down to earth as noted in Revelation 19:11-21 to destroy the wicked left living on the earth.

It must be awfully lonely up in the real Heaven where God has no Old or New Testament saints, as you see to suggest.

The wicked dead will be resurrected bodily at the close of human history as documented in Revelation 20:5. So you understand what I am saying, the righteous dead will rise at the Rapture, and the sinners will do the same at the end of history, well over a thousand years later after Christ's Millennial reign has run its course. [Rev. 20]

No humans will ever be turned into angelic bodies, as you said in your post.

I have been answering your statements and questions, but I notice you fail to explain away my verse by verse explanation. You are so far 'off the beam' that it might take years to bring you back to Biblical truth and I say this with no hurt intended.

I also said, 'They have not yet gone through the passage way of death into Heaven. I was not clear in my former post. Yes, they are in Heaven at this very second, but arrived their never having gone the death route, or through human death.'

You need to study your N.T. much, much better. In none of my theology courses did we learn of your 'waiting-chamber'. This almost has a Roman Catholic flavor to it. Sorry; check with some other pastors and have them explain things to you.


But they, the two witnesses, Enoch and Elijah, will in the Great Tribulation will ascend into Heaven, like our Lord did from Olivet. [Revelation 11:12]'

The resurrection of the just is over one thousand years before the resurrection of the wicked.

The last day is the day and time when Christ takes His glorious church to Heaven.




"The Bible does not say that Enoch and Elijah have to appear on day
one of the Great Tribulation. Here is your mistake."

What you are saying is don't confuse my strong beliefs with the truth. You said, 'Do not impute such opinions to me as I have never held!


"Not only will these two O.T. prophets preach but also the seventh
angel of verse seven will make his declarations of God's truth, probably
announced in the air will be heard by and ' . . . before many peoples,
nations, tongues, and kings. Enoch and Elijah will preach on the
ground in Jerusalem as cited in Revelation 11:8."

Your teaching skills are much more than flawed. 'The Sodom of Egypt, where our Lord was crucified'was in Jerusalem, Israel. Study Church History, also.

You wrote:
"Multiple thousands---perhaps millions of people will have died before
these two prophets appear in the holy city to proclaim their message
sent by them directly from God Almighty."

Well you got this right that God does not want humans to sin, but they have free wills where they have the freedom to reject Christ and most sinners do ignore His salvic plan of redemption.


"Part of Enoch's message has been preached to us, as it were, already
in Jude verse fourteen through sixteen and will be one of the topics in
the era of the future Great Tribulation."

This is totally 'off the wall' and I will not even try to get into your twisted concepts.

I agree with you here.

They are all sinners who are not born again Christians.

If the Great Tribulation has been in the distant past or is presently going on, why have we not seen these horrendous, dreadful judgments from Revelation chapters 6-11 in our day?
The Great Tribulation is a future catastrophe, disaster and human tragedy to our time, on all lost souls."

Possibly Isaiah chapter 24 is about the Great Tribulation. Yes, it is a future event. We agree.

The church will be in Heaven [I Thessalonians 4:16-17] at the time of this unleashing of God's vengeance on the wicked.

I agree that the 'times of the Israelites is yet future and will start during the Great Tribulation and into the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth. I do not agree with your 1,260 years mental gymnastic. The 1,000 year reign of Christ yes. [Zechariah chapter 14 and Ezekiel chapters 36-48, plus Revelation chapter 20.

Regards,
Ray