The two witnesses... TWO candlesticks...?

To have more of Christ you must have more of doctrine, otherwise you are just caught up in a cultish form of mysticism and gnosticism. Knowing about Christ is the doctrine of Christology. We know Christ through the Scriptures. Jesus himself commanded us to study the Scriptures. It is the Scriptures that give us doctrine. The word doctrine simply means teaching. Why are you so adverse to the teachings of Christ, and the teachings about Christ?
DHK

 

DHK

If you could read your responses to people and truly see how contradictory you are, you'd be embarassed that you are not more aware. You not worth the response or my time. Consider me a reprobate will ya please.

Consider me a loss to thy righteous cause and a reprobate lost to the light of thy countenence lol!


Just number me with the transgressers I'm perfectly fine with that I DO NOT CARE what YOU THINK. I live not to please DHK or DHK's CONCEPTUAL or TRADITIONAL truths.

Your opinion means nothing. You hand me a stone and try to convince me its bread. I'm not BUYING WHAT YOUR TRYING TO SELL ME.

Your MARKED because your divisive.

Not interested in the RIGHT HAND of fellowship

Neither will I bow to an IMAGE of Gold (Faith) FORM of godliness with no power


Hope someone "got that"


Overcome

Seth3

 

I think you embarass yourself Seth. I am serious. Quite contrary to what you said, you cannot know Christ without doctrine. It is impossible. Consider the doctrine of the gospel. If you have never heard the doctrine of the gospel you are not saved.
DHK

 

2 John 1:9-11 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

 

DHK
Where you get off thinking I dont know the doctrine of Christ is beyond me? You neither know what or Who I know. You are completely left to your own vain imaginations concerning me.

You "think up" stuff with no basis.

I neither sought you out your in pursuit of me. If it aint for you DHK its not for you. I eat my own bread I haven't asked for a bite of yours.

If it don't bless you go on your crooked path (dont let me stop you).

I think I just discovered the meaning of a THORN!!!

God is Sooooooo GOOD!!!

Bless ya really, in all your creeping and crawling

Seth3

 

There is no need for all the insulting language there Seth. I am merely pointing out in all your vague posts your inconsistencies in your so-called theology. You are the one that said:
I want more of Christ; not doctrines.

Am I correct? This is a debate forum. If you can't take the heat get out of the fire. I challenged your statement because it is a very unbiblical statement. It is a false statement to make and needs to be corrected in such a public forum as this. When I see error I don't let it go unchecked. Remember you are posting on a Baptist board. If you post doctrine that is non-Baptistic, expect it to be challenged. And when it is challenged there is no need to whine and complain about it. If you think what you have said is true, then back it up from the Bible. If you have made a mistake, be man enough to admit it, or correct what you have you said.
DHK

 

Yeah right DHK... To the CONTRARY Its Like what Paul said THAT I MIGHT KNOW HIM

I count ALL THINGS AS LOSS FOR THE SURPASSING GREATEST OF HIM.

I DETERMINE TO KNOW NOTHING SAVE CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED.

To Know His Love that SURPASSES KNOWLEDGE (Could this include doctrines of men? Think so.)

I know the BOOK I desire more of the LORD OF THE BOOK. I'm interested in seeing Face to face, I'm interested in THE PRIZE. THE REWARD

In Short... Nothing short of HIM The LORD of the BOOK.

Seth3

 

Again Seth, let me remind you that you are the one that mentioned doctrine.

The context of your statement was not dealing with man made doctrine. The discussion was on Biblical doctrine. So there is no need to throw a red herring into the discussion here.
Biblical love is based on Biblical knowledge. Or more accurately divine love is based on divine knowledge, especially a knowlege of the Holy. How can you love Him if you know now Him who loved you?? The One who loves you so is revealed to you in the Bible and its doctrines. We are not talking of the doctrines of men, but of the Bible.
So throw away the demeaning attitude, which does not reflect either love or a knowledge of the Bible, and show from the Bible where Christ and doctrine are not related. Your statement is not Scriptural.

If this is a true statement you can demonstrate it in these ways:
1. Your attitude in your posts on the board.
2. Giving Scriptural responses to other people's posts and not just opinions or what you imagine to be true.
3. Start to exegete the Scriptures, and along with exegesis, start to expound the Scriptures. Only with solid exegesis and exposition of the Scriptures will the truth be known. It is not found by string a bunch of verses together thinking there is some mystical hidden meaning in them.
4. Respect the posts of others. They may be right, and you may be wrong. You have the attitude that you are the only one on the board that is right.
DHK

 

Oh DHK Go blow your Smoke in someone elses face thats all it is. I think YOUR the one PURSUING ME trying to KNOCK MY CONFIDENCE IN THE LORD (You see as threatening) trying to shove YOUR rightness down my throat... I'm simply replying to YOUR PURSUIT (For all to see on an open board). I'm simply Confident in who I know, this sickens you I'm sure but I love what I have in Him.

Your the one with problem not me. You wont see me seeking you out asking you anything, I don't perceive in you anything I want or desire.


i'm not defined by you nor do I take heed in anything you say. You talk to me about attitude?

My God you cannot be serious!? as if your the walking fortress and embodiment of Truth in attitude toward all, in persecution of others. In thinking you know something and we need you to be that bearer of the truth. Give it a rest.

Let all men be liars and God be True

Seth3

 

I thought we ate the same manna of the Word of God. Am I wrong?

Jesus said, 'For the bread of God is He Who cometh down from Heaven, and gives life to the world.' Those people asked Jesus for more of that bread. And He said, 'I am the Bread of life; he who comes to Me shall never hunger . . . ' [John 6:33 & 35]

Notice Jesus said that the sinner must come to Him [vs. 35c] and that 'His life was given for the world' so all sinners might be saved. [vs. 33b & I John 2:2]

Blessings!

 

My 2. answer to Ray Berrian:

You wrote:
We agree that Enoch is listed among the O.T. saints in Hebrews 11:5. Verse 13 means that they did not understand the new covenant, the Cross, regeneration, and other large doctrines. They did, however, know the Lord.

My answer:
Scripture says, after first mentioning Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Sara, that ALL THESE PEOPLE DIED in faith (Enoch no exception), NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES, and verse 40 concludes that God provision was that they should not be made perfect without us, the rest of his people, who live after their time.

You claim that these mentioned people did not understand the new covenant, etc., but that is a lame argument, since also believers in the new covenant have as yet died without receiving the promises, even though they have by FAITH (like Enoch etc.) through the Spirit awaited eagerly the righteousness for which they hoped, as can be seen from Gal. 5:5. In 1 Cor. 10:1-4 Paul the apostle says this:

”For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate THE SAME SPIRITUAL FOOD and drank the same spiritual drink; for THEY DRANK FROM THE SPIRITUAL ROCK THAT ACCOMPANIED THEM, AND THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.”

What they did not receive yet, is what the apostles speaks of in 2 Tim. 4:8:

”Now there is in store for me the crown of RIGHTEOUSNESS, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, WILL AWARD TO ME ON THAT DAY--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.”

In answer to my quotation from Heb 11:13 you say ”right!”, so I must ask you if you agree that also Enoch was included among ”all these people” who died? You have no way out if you want to be true to what Scripture says.

When I say that scripture shows us that Enoch's being taken away is reckoned as
DEATH, you buck in protest, your answer is as follows.

Your wrote:
”You are dead wrong here. Hebrews 11:5, even to a child, means that Enoch never died physically. I know this is a high hurdle for you, but strain and you will make it safely.”

My answer:
No, I am not wrong, for there is no such hurdle for me as high as the one that seems to be there for you in Heb. 11:13, which in actual fact says: ”These ALL died in faith,” thereby including Enoch. As a thinking grown-up I am not going to annul this scripture in the bold way you seem to do. I pay heed to what Scripture says!

You wrote:
”God took Enoch and Elijah to Heaven and they never died. They were given a spiritual body, like our Lord's, and are in the perfect joy and felicity of Heaven itself. They or no other O.T. or N.T. saints who die now are in a 'waiting place' or a 'holding tank' until the resurrection of the just. 'Absent from the body, present with the Lord.' [Philippians 1:23 & II Cor. 5:8]”

My answer:
You are oblivious of the fact that you contradict the following words of Jesus in Joh. 3:13:

” And NO MAN HATH ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

These words settles the case and show that you are wrong! ENOCH DID DIE in a sense, exactly as stated in Heb 11:13.

You wrote:
”The whole point of the Enoch and Elijah is that at their departing they
never died a human death, which is required by God for all sinners or
saints.”

My answer:
Do God really require as you claim? Have you read what Paul the apostle says in 1 Cor. 15:51-52?

”Behold, I shew you a mystery; WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP (die), but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

What you in fact are claiming now, with Heb. 9:27 in mind, is that this mystery of 1. Cor. 15:51 also is DEATH, since all men have got to die! Otherewise this quoted scripture would be wrong! Do you realize that? No one of the two of us is allowed to make up scriptural contradictions that are not to be found there.

You wrote:
”You confuse the meaning of Jesus when He speaks of the Last Day. This does not mean the Last Day of all human history. The ’last day’ refers to the rapture of the church where only the ’dead in Christ’ will rise, and not one sinner will rise. [I Thess. 4:16d]”

My answer:
I beg your pardon! How can you claim that the expression ”the last day” refers to a figment of yours that have no basis whatsoever in holy Scripture? Your rapture doctrine is a man-made doctrine, and thus from the abyss, for clearly enough all Scripture teaches us that there will be but one resurrection of humankind, that furthermore will happen at the same twinkling of an eye on the last day. Compare this utteranc with Dan. 12:2, for both saints and ungodly people will with certainty be resurrected at the same time, as seen from these words: ”some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.” Your reference to 1 Thess. 4:16 is thus a boomerang, for as can be seen from verse 15 those believers that are alive at that moment shall in no manner precede those who are dead, for all true believers, quick and dead, shall be taken up together on the very last day. Will you, by the way, argue that some of the dead already had received their crowns of righteousness? Nevertheless, every honest reader can see from 1 Cor. 15:22 that first Jesus himself was resurrected, and that his people will be resurrected next with the end following. There is no other resurrection going to happen between Jesus and his people’s resurrrection, in spite of what misled spiritual leaders might claim.

You wrote:
”These two prophets will preach their message in Jerusalem and will be killed by wicked hands and will ascend into Heaven as says, Revelation 11:12 c,d. After the seven years between the rapture and the Second Coming the two witnesses plus all the saints of Heaven will come down to earth as noted in Revelation 19:11-21 to destroy the wicked left living on the earth.”

My answer:
Stop a bit, and do not twist Scripture! Did you not hear that after Christ’s coming and his resurrection of the saints the END would be there? So what you are doing is twisting Rev. 19, for after the resurrection there will be no more time for verses 11-21 to happen. These verses will be fulfilled before the resurrection comes true. In Rev. 19:2 we hear that the great whore and wickedness has already been judged, so I will ask you who is going to be judged as well after Rev. 19:11? Are not you to late for the job, if you mean to say that you are the folks in verse 14?

Or can you possibly suggest that God’s judgement and avenging of verse 2 was not efficious enough, so that there was a great need for a new try according to verses 11-21? What do you think, and how will these things compare with your figments of that great day and judgement? I think you are in trouble!

When I said that I will also remind you of one more IMPORTANT BIBLICAL FACT, namely that if Elijah and Enoch were taken into the invisible heaven where God is, then Heb. 11:39-40 is untrue, which it is of course not, then you answered me like this:

You wrote:
”It must be awfully lonely up in the real Heaven where God has no Old or New Testament saints, as you see to suggest.”

My answer:
Hello man, do you remember Jesus’ words, namely that NO MAN has ascended into heaven? What about this?

You wrote:
”The wicked dead will be resurrected bodily at the close of human history as documented in Revelation 20:5. So you understand what I am saying, the righteous dead will rise at the Rapture, and the sinners will do the same at the end of history, well over a thousand years later after Christ's Millennial reign has run its course. [Rev. 20]”

My answer:
Either you or Dan. 12:2 is wrong: ”Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: SOME to everlasting life, OTHERS to shame and everlasting contempt.” I am convinced of your being in error here, for according to Matt. 19:28 the start of the so-called Millennium will be not bodily resurrections but spiritual resurrections by faith, since while the Son of man sits in his throne of glory there will be REGENERATION (KJV) and renewal of all things (NIV):

”And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the REGENERATION when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

This same thing is foretold in Psalm 149 and 2 Thess. 2.

When I said that no humans will ever come back in angelic bodies (as you theory entails), you said this:

Your answer:
”I have been answering your statements and questions, but I notice you fail to explain away my verse by verse explanation. You are so far 'off the beam' that it might take years to bring you back to Biblical truth and I say this with no hurt intended.

I also said, 'They have not yet gone through the passage way of death into Heaven. I was not clear in my former post. Yes, they are in Heaven at this very second, but arrived their never having gone the death route, or through human death.'”

My answer:
Guess what? You are actually telling me that their souls were never separated from their fleshly bodies, which is what death means, so as a consequence they have jumped 1 Cor 15:50:

” I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”

The PERISHABLE has conquered the imperishable realm, even though we know that no flesh can see God and live! In Exodus 33:20 God says:

” But," he (God) said, "you cannot see my face, for NNE MAYS SEE ME AND LIVE."

So tell me now how Enoch and Elijah managed to go to heaven without dying (i.e. with soul separated from body) to see the Lord? Your answer will be interesting!

You wrote:
”You need to study your N.T. much, much better. In none of my theology courses did we learn of your 'waiting-chamber'. This almost has a Roman Catholic flavor to it. Sorry; check with some other pastors and have them explain things to you.”

My answer:
If you can give me a good answer from Scripture to my question on how Enoch and Elijah managed it right to the Lord without being separated from their fleshly body, I will gladly follow your advice. Until that good answer exists I choose to believe that you need more study yourself, even more reliable study. I do not mean to be rude with you, but a need is a need!

You wrote:
”But they, the two witnesses, Enoch and Elijah, will in the Great Tribulation will ascend into Heaven, like our Lord did from Olivet. [Revelation 11:12]”

My answer:
Do you know that the great tribulation will be in the time of the sixth trumpet, as seen from Rev. 9:13-15?

” The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns of the golden altar that is before God. It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.” (Rev. 9:13-15)

Your problem is that according to Rev 7:2-3 the work of sealing God’s people must happen before the tribulation starts:

”Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice TO THE FOUR ANGELS WHO HAD THE BEEN GIVEN POWER TO HARM: "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God."

When the destruction starts there will be no more preaching of God’s everlasting gospel, and no grace anymore until the war has ended.

When I said that you are now talking like a madman, contradicting the holy Scriptures, since there will be NO BODILY RESURRECTION until on the very last day, as Jesus says himself, who knows for sure better than you (John 6:40), you wrote this:

”The resurrection of the just is over one thousand years before the resurrection of the wicked.”

You did not care about what Jesus has said (John: 6:39):

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth
the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will
raise him up AT THE LAST DAY."

You wrote back:

Your answer:

”The last day is the day and time when Christ takes His glorious church to Heaven.”

My answer:
Right, and when all things are fulfilled on earth, no more to things to come but the end! If you will say that a thousand year is like a day to the Lord, I must remind you of the biblical fact that the great tribulation comes true in the in the midst of New Testament time, according to the prophets of the Bible, so there are still more than a thousand years to come before the end of the earth. This can be proved by Scripture.

You wrote:
"The Bible does not say that Enoch and Elijah have to appear on day
one of the Great Tribulation. Here is your mistake."

My answer:
Listen, man! Scripture does not even say that they will appear, quite the opposite, as I have already proved by quoting Eccl. 9:5-6:

”For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished; NEVER AGAIN WILL THEY HAVE A PART IN ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS UNDER THE SUN.”

Is this true or is it not? I think you are stuck with your bible-twisting doctrine on the two witnesses!

You wrote:
”What you are saying is don't confuse my strong beliefs with the truth. You said, 'Do not impute such opinions to me as I have never held!

My answer:
You have no truth to come forth with, as I have already shown, for you contradict Scripture constantly.

You wrote:
"Not only will these two O.T. prophets preach but also the seventh angel of verse seven will make his declarations of God's truth, probably announced in the air will be heard by and ' . . . before many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings. Enoch and Elijah will preach on the ground in Jerusalem as cited in Revelation 11:8."

My answer:
I see that you have no idea about the consequences of what you are purporting, as I meant when I said this:

”Now you are talking against Scripture again, for no angel will ever preach or declare anything to peoples, nations, tongues, and kings, but the two witnesses, who are ordinary humans, will do so. Do not lie against Scripture! I will also underscore the fact that there will never be any Enoch or Elijah preaching in historical Jerusalem, for the town called ”the great city” is Babylon in spiritual sense. Remember that the time of the sixth trumpet is the time when the fulness of Gentiles will come in, not the fulness of Jews. These biblical fact I can show show from Scripture.”

Your answer was:
”Your teaching skills are much more than flawed. ’The Sodom of Egypt, where our Lord was crucified’ was in Jerusalem, Israel. Study Church History, also.”

My answer:
Okay, let me show you my teaching skills then, since they seem even more than flawed to you. First of all, if Jerusalem is taken to be historical Jerusalem, what other temple can the two witnesses possibly measure than the Muslim mosque that is built at the place where the Jewish temple of old used to be? Would you say that a mosque is the temple? Further, what Jerusalem do you think it might be where there is but ONE street, and in which the bodies of the two witnesses shall lie? Do you mean that the Gentiles that should trample the holy city for 42 months are the Muslims or Palestinians, and what outer court was in that case given to them? I put these questions to you in order to show you that historical Jerusalem is missing about all the characteristics that belong to this Jerusalem of Rev. 11, the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt (not the Sodom of Egypt, as you say). As I said, there is but one street in this Jerusalem, and it is broad indeed, as can be seen from what Jesus says in Matt. 7:13:

”Broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.”

You tell me to study Church History also! Do you not realize that the Bible itself is the most complete church history to be found, never telling lies as do quite a few misled church fathers and hypocrites.

You wrote:
"Part of Enoch's message has been preached to us, as it were, already in Jude verse fourteen through sixteen and will be one of the topics in the era of the future Great Tribulation."

My answer:
Let me say it frankly that your words do not carry far being scrutinized in the light of Scripture. You are twisting Scripture here! If you want to understand Jude 14-16 you should also read Psalm 149 and Matt. 19:28, comparing also with 2 Thes. 2. Then you will possibly see that the heavenly war of Rev. 12:7 is a spiritual war in which believers in the everlasting gospel will disclose the false doctrines of Antichrist that are being preached on earth to day. This secret is foretold by Jesus in Matt 8:12:

”But the CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM (!!!) shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

You wrote:
”This is totally 'off the wall' and I will not even try to get into your twisted concepts.”

My answer:
There is no possibility for you to refute this fact, so if you should even try to lay hands on it, you would be severely scorched. Scripture cannot be refuted!

I asked you who those children were that were cast out, and you came forth with the following answer:

You wrote:
”They are all sinners who are not born again Christians.”

My answer:
What are your teaching skills, since you overlook that it is said indeed that THE CHILDREN of the kingdom will be thrown out. When did THE CHILDREN become sinners, as you say, that are not born again Christians? Have you got the biblically correct answer?

You wrote:
”Possibly Isaiah chapter 24 is about the Great Tribulation. Yes, it is a future event. We agree. The church will be in Heaven [I Thessalonians 4:16-17] at the time of this unleashing of God's vengeance on the wicked.”

My answer:
No, you are wrong, for in Isa. 24:16 we read about God’s people praising their Lord when they are still on earth. No heavenly escape, as you think, for it is even said in Rev 7:13-14:

”And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are THEY WHICH CAME OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

Think of it, they did not come down from heaven together with Jesus Christ after having been there for 7 years, having participated at the marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev. 19:7), as some misled people believe and teach. No, they came right through the tribulation, being protected by their Lord.

You wrote:
”I agree that the 'times of the Israelites is yet future and will start during the Great Tribulation and into the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth. I do not agree with your 1,260 years mental gymnastic. The 1,000 year reign of Christ yes. [Zechariah chapter 14 and Ezekiel chapters 36-48, plus Revelation chapter 20.”

My answer:
I did not say that I believe that the times of the Israelites will start during the Great Tribulation, for that is impossible. The reason is as follows: Whereas the tribulation will happen in the beginning of the sixth trumpet’s time (Rev. 9:13-15), the time of the Jews will start with the blow of the seventh trumpet, which happens after the 1260-year long period of the sixth trumpet is at an end (Rev. 12:6). In verse 14 we see that the woman (the true church of God) moves out of the land of the Gentiles to HER OWN place Israel, and will be nurtured there for 1260 years. And everybody can calculate for himself to know that twice 1260 years add up to 2520 years. This will be the length of the so-called Millennium, which is the latter part of NT time. No amount of ignorance or recalcitrant attitude can set these biblical facts at nought!


With greetings
roffa

 

roffa,

You used the words of our Lord in John 3:13. I will agree with you that no one has ascended up into Heaven, not even Mary, the mother of our Lord, as in her alleged 'Assumption of Mary' (into Heaven).

You probably will agree with most Christians that at death we are taken to Heaven in the sense that our soul and spirit returns to God in Heaven. [II Corinthians 5:8 & Philippians 1:23] Hebrews 1:3 indicates that Jesus is in Heaven. The Corinthian and Philippian passages point to the fact that at physical death, the Christian goes into Heaven where our Lord is seated in sovereign authority over this world and even in His realm.

Again, Jesus has told us that no person has ascended into Heaven, but every Christian at death goes into the beatific reality of seeing Jesus Christ in Heaven. At death we receive the spiritual body as described in II Corinthians 5:1-4. At the resurrection of the just, Jesus will raise our mortal bodies and we will be then fully complete. [I Corinthians chapter fifteen & I Thessalonians 4:17 & I Thessalonians 5:23.

May God grant us continued enlightenment as we study His words of truth.

Ray

 

Roffa,
Your problem here is that you have presented too many issues to discuss all at one time. For instance you brought up the issue of the two witness (which the thread is actually about). But not only who they are, but in what time period they are present in the Tribulation. You said they are present just before the sixth trumpet.
There are many views just on this one subject alone, and not one of them can be dogmatic. Do the witnesses appear in the first half or the second half of the tribulation? We don't know for sure. It depends on your outlook. Are the seals, trumpets, and vials all in chronological order one after the other.?. Many say yes but not every one. Some say that the trumpets and vials are interspersed between the seals. Others say that the trumpets all proceed out of the 7th seal, and all of the vials proceed out of the 7th trumpet. Some say that they are just all chronological, one after another. Who is correct? This is only one subject that you allude to—the time that the witnesses appear on the scene. That alone is a discussion in itself.

You quote 2Tim.4:8 in defense of your argument, using the phrase: "all those that love his appearing," and then apply that to O.T. believers. In reality, however, Paul was speaking to N.T. believers, not O.T. believers. It was the N.T. believers that were looking forward to the imminency of the return of Christ. The O.T. believers were looking for the restoration of Israel, or the judgement of the nations around them, or the Millennial Kingdom, but not the return of Christ in the way that Paul was speaking of.

One of the main discussions going on is the resurrection body. If Christ is the first-fruits of the resurrections, then what kind of body did Enoch and Elijah have. It is possible that they had a body, but not a glorified body like Jesus. Perhaps is it was a temporary body of some kind. Whatever the case it seems like there is some speculation involved here. Again, this is another discussion in itself.

Your quote here borders on heresy, if it isn't heresy. John 3:13 is a clear statement of the deity of Jesus Christ. It is a claim of his omnipresence, a claim that only God can make. He was saying that He was on earth at the same time that He was in Heaven. Enoch could not make that claim.


Another discussion that you bring up is the discussion of whether the promises of the New Testament Covenant were applicable to those under the Old Testament Covenant. This is another discussion in and of itself.

The comparison of Heb.9:27 that it is required of all men to die, to the rapture is a relatively minor point but still worthy of discussion, again another topic.

You bring up the discussion of what the Bible says concerning "the last day." What does the "the last day" refer to? Here is another discussion one could spend time on. I am not going to detail the other points that you brought up in your post, as these are enough for a number of discussions. Why not take one at a time and discuss them. It is a little laborious to wade through all of these and try to address all of them in one post. Just a suggestion.
DHK

 

My answer to DHK

You wrote:
"Roffa,
Your problem here is that you have presented too many issues to discuss all at one time."

My answer:
Yes, I agree that I have taken up many issues to discuss, but nonetheless, they are still related some way or other to what I write on the two witnesses. For me the road is straight, although I can see that some people might have problems following me.

You wrote:
"For instance you brought up the issue of the two witness (which the thread is actually about). But not only who they are, but in what time period they are present in the Tribulation. You said they are present just before the sixth trumpet."

My answer:
It is no problem for me to talk about who they are according to Scripture and what time period they belong in, for these things are plain from what Scripture says. I have not said that the two witnesses are present in the tribulation or before the sixth trumpet, but rather that they are present in the beginning of the time of the sixth trumpet and before the tribulation comes. That is to say that he tribulation is something which belongs in the time period of the sixth trumpet. This cannot be doubted if you consider the contents of Rev 9:13-15, which deals with the same catastrophe as Isa.. 24.

You wrote:
"There are many views just on this one subject alone, and not one of them can be dogmatic."

My answer:
I know that there are many views on that one subject, all advocated of men only, but what is even more important to know is that Scripture has got one true meaning for us all the same. That meaning I am always going for.

You wrote:
"Do the witnesses appear in the first half or the second half of the tribulation? We don't know for sure. It depends on your outlook."

My answer:
As I said, the two witnesses will not appear either in the first half or the the second half of the tribulation. Scripture is clear on that fact.

You wrote:
"Are the seals, trumpets, and vials all in chronological order one after the other.?."

My answer:
The first important basic thing to know for everyone who reads the book of Revelation is that the book is not like other books in having but one beginning and one end. The 7 seals (Rev 6:1) contain the same things symbolically presented as do the 7 trumpets (Rev 8:6). From Rev 9:12-13 we see that the first woe of three woes consists of 5 trumpets, whereas Rev 11:14-15 shows us that the second woe and the sixth trumpet cover the same time period. The seventh trumpet and the third woe thus cover one and the same time period. All the seven seals put together cover all of New Testament time, as do also the seven trumpets.

It is also worthwhile paying attention to the fact that there are given additional pieces of information on the contents of both the sixth seal and sixth trumpet. These pieces of additional information can be found in Rev. 10:1-11 and Rev. 11:1-14 for the sixth trumpet, and in Rev. 7:1-17 for the sixth seal. If we do not see this important thing in the way the prophetic messages are arranged in the book of Revelation, we will definitely be without the ability of discerning the prophetic outline of future events. My heart aches to see how bewildered many people are to day, although there are thousands of pastors teaching around.

You wrote:
"Many say yes but not every one. Some say that the trumpets and vials are interspersed between the seals."

My answer:
Those who say so will be teaching that the same prophetic events happen more than once, e.g. that the end of the world will happen at least twice, which is rubbish.

You wrote:
"Others say that the trumpets all proceed out of the 7th seal, and all of the vials proceed out of the 7th trumpet."

My answer:
That doctrine is false, for according to it we would be compelled to believe that the end of the world will come many times in NT, which is definitely unbiblical rubbish. There would, for instance, be an end of the world after Rev. 8:7-9 even though the end was said to have come already in the time of the sixth seal (Rev. 6:12-17). The vials belong in the time of the sixth trumpet, and this fact can be nailed down.

You wrote:
"Some say that they are just all chronological, one after another. Who is correct? This is only one subject that you allude to—the time that the witnesses appear on the scene. That alone is a discussion in itself."

My answer:
If the seals and woes and trumpets are all chronological, for instance seals before woes and trumpets etc., there would be, as I already said, many ends of the world. We can thus safely discard such false notions. Who is correct? None of them, I dare say! As regarding the time when the witnesses appear on scene, Scripture gives us many guideline pieces of information.

You said:
"You quote 2Tim.4:8 in defense of your argument, using the phrase: "all those that love his appearing," and then apply that to O.T. believers. In reality, however, Paul was speaking to N.T. believers, not O.T. believers. It was the N.T. believers that were looking forward to the imminency of the return of Christ."

My answer:
Yes, I did apply Paul's words to OT believers as well in the context of discussion, which can not be wrong since it is said of OT believers in Heb 11:13 that they all died in faith, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES, but HAVING SEEN THEM AFAR OFF, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, AND CONFESSED THAT THEY WERE STRANGERS AND PILGRIMS ON EARTH. They looked forward to something greater and better than just the historical RESTORATION OF ISRAEL, and therefore they did realize that they were only strangers and pilgrims on this earth. Pay attention to that fact!

You wrote:
"The O.T. believers were looking for the restoration of Israel, or the judgement of the nations around them, or the Millennial Kingdom, but not the return of Christ in the way that Paul was speaking of."

My answer:
Yes, I agree, OT believers did look for the restoration of Israel, but still their spiritual eye looked even farther. They looked beyond life on earth, as Heb. 11:13 reveals. So, I did not misapply Paul's words!

You wrote:
"One of the main discussions going on is the resurrection body. If Christ is the first-fruits of the resurrections, then what kind of body did Enoch and Elijah have. It is possible that they had a body, but not a glorified body like Jesus. Perhaps is it was a temporary body of some kind. Whatever the case it seems like there is some speculation involved here. Again, this is another discussion in itself."

My answer:
I also agree that this is another discussion, but not in itself, for it applies to topic on the two witnesses. I will return to this later on occasion.

You wrote:
"Your quote (my inclusion: Heb. 11:13) here borders on heresy, if it isn't heresy. John 3:13 is a clear statement of the deity of Jesus Christ. It is a claim of his omnipresence, a claim that only God can make. He was saying that He was on earth at the same time that He was in Heaven. Enoch could not make that claim."

My answer:
Yes, Jesus claimed ommnipresence for himself here, but he also made it perfectly clear that the two cases of Enoch's and Elijah's being taken up to heaven did not mean that they were in heaven in the meaning of having thus attained to perfection before other believers in God.

You wrote:
"Another discussion that you bring up is the discussion of whether the promises of the New Testament Covenant were applicable to those under the Old Testament Covenant. This is another discussion in and of itself."

My answer:
This is another discussion, yes, but what I said was not meant to minimize the necessity of ransom from sin through Jesus Christ, only to point to fact that also OT believers were such through their faith.

You wrote:
"The comparison of Heb.9:27 that it is required of all men to die, to the rapture is a relatively minor point but still worthy of discussion, again another topic."

My answer:
As long as the false doctrine is advocated by some that Enoch and Elijah did not die and therefore will return to this earth as the two witnesses, I find it vitally important to show how such teachers are enmeshed in contradictions. If we do not attain to the true meaning of Scripture, we will instead end up sitting by such tables as Isaiah the prophet of God complains about (Isa. 28:8):

"For all tables are full of VOMIT and FILTHINESS, so that there is no place clean."

You wrote:
"You bring up the discussion of what the Bible says concerning "the last day." What does the "the last day" refer to? Here is another discussion one could spend time on."

My answer:
Yes, I bring up that discussion, and must do so to show that the Darby doctrine of rapture is a flat denial of our saviour's words, that the bodily resurrection will be on the very LAST day. I do not want to lap up the kind of vomit that the prophet complains about.

You wrote:
"I am not going to detail the other points that you brought up in your post, as these are enough for a number of discussions. Why not take one at a time and discuss them. It is a little laborious to wade through all of these and try to address all of them in one post. Just a suggestion."

My answer:
Thank you for the suggestion, and I can see the problem. Even so, what I write I do out of wish to help people see through the mist of abyss that false doctrines add up to.

With greetings
roffa

 

Most conservative theologians suggest that the Book of Revelation was written after the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., probably about in the year 90 A.D. This being true Revelation has to be future to the Jews being killed or exiled to surrounding nations.

Judeo-Christian history does not speak of any Temple in Jerusalem even to our day. If this is a fact, and it is, then Revelation is future to our time, but perhaps very soon to appear.

Jerusalem will in the future be under siege for 3 ½ years/forty-two months. War will come to Jerusalem but there will be two witnesses, and it will not be two newspapers out of NYC and Washington. These witness have bodies as in the fact that they have 'mouths' [vs. 5b] A 'prophecy' often entails a prophet/preacher. Enoch and Elijah fit the picture. 'And when THEY shall have finished their testimony . . . , [vs. 7] infers they are two men because they were 'killed.' [vs. 7d]

' . . . dead bodies' on the streets of Jerusalem surely points to two prophets. In the Apostle John's days on earth, various 'nations' plural could not see this isolated incident in the holy city. But, because of televisions, computers, and newspapers they will see the dead bodies of these men of God. [vs. 9] It is abnormal to allow two bodies to remain in the streets of any city, for 3 ½ days. [vs. ] And because they are not buried, makes them candidates for an ascension into Heaven. God who sent them to preach also takes their bodies into His realm above. Verse 10 makes it clear that there are ' . . . two prophets.' Now tell me that Muslims and other wicked souls will not rejoice at their physical deaths. Revelation 11:10 speaks of 'party time.' Verse 11 tell us that the 'two olive trees' have feet. [vs. 11b] Also, these prophets could be seen with the human eyes.

Even after the ascension of Enoch and Elijah back into Heaven, the Great Tribulation with God's judgments on the earth continue. Note the 'great earthquake, with 1/10th of the city of Jerusalem being destroyed along with 7,000 people losing their lives.

In Jeremiah 11:16 speaks of ' . . . olive trees as being fair and of goodly fruit.' The two prophets are now in Heaven and will be fair and filled with good works including their message from God's throne above.

Also, King David, who was also a prophet, speaks of himself as being 'like a green olive tree' in the House of God. Enoch and Elijah will also ' . . . trust in the mercy of God forever.' Thus, the reference in Revelation 11:4 is perfectly fitting as to these two future prophets.

Dr. Berrian, Th.D.

 

My third answer to Ray Berrian

You wrote:
”Most conservative theologians suggest that the Book of Revelation was written after the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., probably about in the year 90 A.D. This being true Revelation has to be future to the Jews being killed or exiled to surrounding nations.”

My answer:
It is strange for me to experience that although some people maintain that the Book of Revelation was written after the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 AD., they nevertheless do not find it contradictory to maintain at the same time that the woman and the man child of Rev. 12 symbolize Mary and Jesus. They thus neglect the fact that Rev. 1:1 rules out that possibility by stating that the book shows ”things which must shortly come to pass.” Others claim that the book of Revelation was written before the Jewish catastrophe of 70 AD. since there is no mention in it of the temple being destroyed. Still others tend to believe and claim that the book of Revelation was written only after the events that it purports to foretell, hence an ordinary history book without noteworthy claims to prophetic inspiration. They have no scruples, further, about claiming among other things that the five fallen heads in Rev. 17:10 symbolize the Roman emperors Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero. By doing so they give themselves an excuse for disparaging the prophetic authenticity and value of the Book of Revelation.

I would like to say that silence on the part of Revelation on the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish temple is no decisive thing to consider in support of a late date for the book of Revelation, for in Mark 13.1-2 we read:

”As he was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!" "Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

This means that although the book of Revelation does not directly mention the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple the Christians of those days without doubt knew about this coming catastrophe.

What Rev. 11:2 says about the city being tread under Gentile foot for 42 months, regardless of whether these months mean a short period of time (3 ½ years) or a long period of time (1260 years), does not bear on historical Jerusalem, for in NT time historical Jerusalem has been under pagan rule for more than 1260 years. Since, according to the original Greek text of Rev. 11:8, it is said that in this Jerusalem there is but ONE street on which the dead bodies (or body) of the two witnesses will be seen, we have got a good reason to conclude that historical Jerusalem is not the city meant in Rev. 11.

You wrote:
”Judeo-Christian history does not speak of any Temple in Jerusalem even to our day. If this is a fact, and it is, then Revelation is future to our time, but perhaps very soon to appear.”

My answer:
Even so, there is no basis for you to claim that the (whole) book of Revelation is future to our time, for many of the things that it foretells are already fulfilled, as can be shown. For example, the ten horns of the beast has been.

You wrote:
”Jerusalem will in the future be under siege for 3 ½ years/forty-two months. War will come to Jerusalem but there will be two witnesses, and it will not be two newspapers out of NYC and Washington. These witness have bodies as in the fact that they have 'mouths' [vs. 5b] A 'prophecy' often entails a prophet/preacher. Enoch and Elijah fit the picture. 'And when THEY shall have finished their testimony . . . , [vs. 7] infers they are two men because they were 'killed.' [vs. 7d]”

My answer:
Why will Jerusalem be under siege for 3 ½ years (42 months) in the future? If that is what you think Rev. 11:2 tells us, I must remind you of the fact that historical Jerusalem has neither a court nor a temple for enemies to tread under foot, and, besides, the temple that Esekiel foretells shall never be desecrated. I will also ask you if you believe that the HOLY city which John was told to measure is the UNHOLY city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified? Yeah, how can a city be both HOLY and UNHOLY? The reason why John should not measure the court outside the temple was said to be that it was already given to the Gentiles, so therefore I would like to ask you if you know what time John did measure the temple in Jerusalem as he was told to do? All who set out to expound Rev. 11 have got to deal with these questions, so if they are not capable of giving a biblically reliable explanation in which all parts of prophecy make up a neat and wholesome picture, they have definitely failed in their undertaking.

You wrote:
”' . . . dead bodies' on the streets of Jerusalem surely points to two prophets. In the Apostle John's days on earth, various 'nations' plural could not see this isolated incident in the holy city. But, because of televisions, computers, and newspapers they will see the dead bodies of these men of God. [vs. 9] It is abnormal to allow two bodies to remain in the streets of any city, for 3 ½ days. [vs. ] And because they are not buried, makes them candidates for an ascension into Heaven. God who sent them to preach also takes their bodies into His realm above. Verse 10 makes it clear that there are ' . . . two prophets.' Now tell me that Muslims and other wicked souls will not rejoice at their physical deaths. Revelation 11:10 speaks of 'party time.' Verse 11 tell us that the 'two olive trees' have feet. [vs. 11b] Also, these prophets could be seen with the human eyes.”

My answer:
The dead bodies could be explained to be two groups of people. I have seen it expounded that way on the net. Some say that the two witnesses are OT and NT. If the text of Rev. 11:3 is pointed to, which reads that ”I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy,” I am sure that the twisters of Revelation will be hard put to explain how two groups of people, or OT and NT, for that sake, can be said first to be witnesses and (only) afterwards prophets of God. There is no denying that Zerubbabel and Joshua, the two OT prophets in Zechariah 3, 4 and 6, symbolize the two witnesses of Rev. 11.

I cannot agree with you in saying that the bodies of the two witnesses will be taken by God into the realm above. There are two reason why God will not do so. First, his apostle clearly says in 1 Cor. 15:50 that ”flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption,” and, secondly, the two witnesses preach in the time of the sixth trumpet whereas the bodily resurrection of the dead, believers as well as unbelievers, will happen on the very LAST day according to what Jesus says in John 6:39:

”And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.”

What Muslims and other wicked souls will do time will show, but in spite of that the bodies of the two witnesses will not come to lie dead in historical Jerusalem for its lack of both a court, a temple and an altar. And it is already too late for a temple to be built, since the destructive four angels of Rev. 7:2, who has been given power to harm the land and sea, can be already seen standing there bound at the great river Euphrates, according to Rev. 9:14-15.

You wrote:
”Even after the ascension of Enoch and Elijah back into Heaven, the Great Tribulation with God's judgments on the earth continue. Note the 'great earthquake, with 1/10th of the city of Jerusalem being destroyed along with 7,000 people losing their lives.”

My answer:
Let me put you some questions that bear on the resurrection of the dead, after having referred you to Matt. 27:52: ”The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.” Do you think these holy people went up to heaven after having been somewhere else waiting for this to happen, thus forming a group that indeed was made perfect ”without us” in spite of what Heb. 11:40 states? And do you think Paul the apostle of Christ forgot this group while writing on the order of resurrections in 1 Cor 15:22-23?

”For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; AFTERWARDS they that are Christ’s at his coming.”

By quoting these scriptures and asking all these questions I mean to say that all those things happened only to manifest that Christ had indeed provided an eternal sacrifice and ransom for all who put their trust in God. As Lazarus was raised from the dead in order that the life-giving power of God should be manifest to all (John 11:11-14; 11:23-25), and then died a second time later on to wait for a ”better resurrection” (Heb. 11:35), so were many dead believers raised to life at the death of Jesus to show that they too were waiting for a ”better resurrection”, since captivity was now led captive (Eph. 4:8). Martha knew that the resurrection of the dead, that is of their bodies, would be on the last day, as we can see from John 11:24-25. Jesus did not say that Martha was wrong in believing so, but rather verified that even though bodily death comes to the believer, he will live again (future: zeesetai), since he believes in Jesus who is the Resurrection (he anastasis). It was said to Daniel that he should rest til the END, and then RISE to receive his allotted inheritance AT THE END OF THE DAYS (Dan. 12:12). Since Daniel, this highly esteemed man (Dan. 10:11), will rest in his grave until the END OF DAYS, not coming back to earth with Christ and other raised up saints to judge Antichrist, as some bewildered people think, nobody should trust any more in those who teach that there will be a so-called rapture before the end of days.


It cannot be established on the basis of Scripture that Elijah and Enoch are coming back to life and earth in order to become the two foretold witnesses of Rev. 11. On the contrary, it can be verified from Scripture that one of the two witnesses who is prophetically called Joshua in Zech. 3:3 is ”clothed in filthy garments,” a fact that completely rules out the possibility of this man being either Enoch or Elijah. This proves that the whole theory spun around Elijah and Enoch is a fallacy.

You wrote:
”In Jeremiah 11:16 speaks of ' . . . olive trees as being fair and of goodly fruit.' The two prophets are now in Heaven and will be fair and filled with good works including their message from God's throne above.

Also, King David, who was also a prophet, speaks of himself as being 'like a green olive tree' in the House of God. Enoch and Elijah will also ' . . . trust in the mercy of God forever.' Thus, the reference in Revelation 11:4 is perfectly fitting as to these two future prophets.”

My answer:
What do you mean by saying that the two prophets are now in heaven? If they are made perfect, why then should they come back to earth, as you believe? As for their good works, I will refer you to Rev. 14:13:

”And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may REST FROM THERE LABOURS; and their works do follow them.”

If the dead really rest from there labours, what good works will they be filled with?

Greetings
roffa

 

Roffa said.......cannot agree with you in saying that the bodies of the two witnesses will be taken by God into the realm above. There are two reason why God will not do so. First, his apostle clearly says in 1 Cor. 15:50 that ”flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption....

My answer is: That is why the bible also says "we shall all be changed, in the twinkling of an eye".

I am sure that in the case of the 2 witnesses (Enoch and Elijah) they will be changed before they get to heaven!!

Duh!!

Peace,

Tam

 

Hei tamborine lady,

You ought to realize that the change that takes place in the twinkling of an eye happens when Jesus Christ returns in person to fetch his ppl up to heaven on the LAST day. Then all holy people will receive what they have been longing for, namely perfection (Heb. 11:40).

When Jesus was raised up from the dead, he was not immediately made perfect, as can be seen from John 20:17:

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

What this verse shows us is that even though Jesus' human body was raised up from the dead it still lingered on earth and was not immediately taken up into heaven. After he was made perfect or was glorified he never appeared any more to people in the manner he used to shortly after his resurrection.

So, if it were true that Elijah and Enoch were made perfect being taken up to heaven they indeed prove Heb. 11:39-40 to be wrong. Therefore their being taken up was only a different way of tasting death until being raised up again by Christ on the very last day. They will never come back to earth again to become the two witnesses of Rev. 11:3, as some ppl believe, for that would be a contradiction to Eccl. 9:5-6. Besides, one of the two witnesses of Rev. 11:3 is described in Zech. 3:3 as being clothed in filthy clothes, and that for sure would by no means fit Elijah or Enoch.

The two witnesses are two persons, but they are two persons living today, not two persons that used to live in OT times. They are not two churches, Gentile and Jewish, as some pastors teach, for the one street of Jerusalem would not be wide enough to take such a vast number of people.
Nor are they Scripture, Old and New Testaments, for it cannot be said of Scripture that it will be given power to prophesy, as Scripture consists of prophecies and power all the time down through human history.

Greetings
roffa

 

This is an ‘argument from silence’ and does not carry one ounce of weight.

How can you assure us that the Israelites believed that ‘not one stone would remain on top of another’ as to the Temple, when Jesus’ own apostles did not believe He would die a physical death on the Cross. Sure, after the Fall of Jerusalem, a slight few who may have lived to 70 A.D. might have remembered Jesus’ words.

As far as not believing the ascension of the two witnesses, that is a matter of your lack of faith in this passage and truth. I believe that the rest of your faith is in tact.

No one would have believed that God would allow the Transfiguration of Christ event but it happened.

I believe that those who die in Christ before the rapture, receive a temporary spiritual body as suggested in II Corinthians 5:1-8.

God, at His Second Coming, is going to bring His saints from Heaven with Him as noted in Revelation 19:14; why do you see a problem with God calling up His messengers into Heaven after their message from His throne is completed? [Revelation 11:9-12]

The Bible says that it is appointed for all men to die and then the judgment. Enoch and Elijah never died, so they must return to preach and then they will be killed in the city of Jerusalem. [Revelation 11:8c] If not then Jesus did not mean what He said, in Hebrews 9:27.

'And as it is appointed unto men (and women) once to die, but after this the judgment.'

 

Does anyone think 'the two olive trees' and 'the two candlesticks' are one in the same things/people? [Revelation 11:4]