The two witnesses... TWO candlesticks...?

My answer to Ray Berrian:

After quoting me:
"This means that although the book of Revelation does not directly mention the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple the Christians of those days without doubt knew about this coming catastrophe,"

you go on saying that "This is an ‘argument from silence’ and does not carry one ounce of weight."

My answer:
No, this is no argument from silence, for it was evident from such scriptures as Dan. 9:26 that Jerusalem was going to be destroyed, a fact that Jesus himself made plain to his disciples and the coming apostles (Matt 24:1-2). Since the followers of Jesus knew this, as history shows, they could follow the advice of Jesus in Matt 24:15-16 and escape the calamities that ensued.

You ask me:
"How can you assure us that the Israelites believed that ‘not one stone would remain on top of another’ as to the Temple, when Jesus’ own apostles did not believe He would die a physical death on the Cross. Sure, after the Fall of Jerusalem, a slight few who may have lived to 70 A.D. might have remembered Jesus’ words."

My answer:
I need not assure you of anything, only point to the historical fact that the early Christians paid heed to what Jesus had foretold and escaped from Jerusalem before its destruction because they did not despise his advice.

You wrote:
"As far as not believing the ascension of the two witnesses, that is a matter of your lack of faith in this passage and truth. I believe that the rest of your faith is in tact."

My answer:
I do believe the ascesion of the two witnesses - but within the frames that Scripture provides for that event - which means that I sincerely maintain it to be something quite different from a bodily ascesion. Their bodily ascension (or resurrection) will take place only on the very LAST day (when the time of the seventh trump ends), so this ascension of theirs in Rev. 11:12 will be a spiritual one, for instance when people see the clouds of warfare and destruction and realize that Isa. 24 is being fulfilled.

You wrote:
"No one would have believed that God would allow the Transfiguration of Christ event but it happened."

My answer:
So what, that does not contradict what I have said.

You wrote:
"I believe that those who die in Christ before the rapture, receive a temporary spiritual body as suggested in II Corinthians 5:1-8."

My answer:
First of all, there is going to be NO RAPTURE as posited by Darby and those who accept his fallacy. Secondly, whatever bodies believers are going to receive on the last day they will by necessity be formed out of their fleshly bodies according to the person's doings while on earth, for Paul the apostle teaches that in 1 Cor. 15:42-44:

"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body."

The Lord Jesus made a full atonement for both soul and body, death, the LAST enemy (1 Cor. 15:26), thus totally loosing its power.

You wrote:
"God, at His Second Coming, is going to bring His saints from Heaven with Him as noted in Revelation 19:14;"

My answer:
Revelation 19:14 does say nothing about Christ bringing his saints from heaven to earth, but rather describes the victory of truth over falsehood after the spiritual warfare of Rev. 12:7, which is also foretold by such scriptures as Psalm 149:6-9 and Matt 8:12:

"But the SUBJECTS (or CHILDREN) of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Why should they be thrown out of the kingdom if they were not Antichrists?

You ask me:
"why do you see a problem with God calling up His messengers into Heaven after their message from His throne is completed? [Revelation 11:9-12]"

My answer:
The reason is that the bodily resurrection will not happen until on the last day, as said by Jesus. Rev. 11:9-12 foretells the mission of the two witnesses and the fact that their enemies will eventually be compelled to realize and admit that those men were indeed true witnesses of God.

You wrote:
"The Bible says that it is appointed for all men to die and then the judgment. Enoch and Elijah never died, so they must return to preach and then they will be killed in the city of Jerusalem. [Revelation 11:8c]"

My answer:
As I have said, one of the two witnesses will be the Joshua of Zech 3, who is standing before the Lord in filthy clothes. I say you that neither Elijah nor Enoch fits into this description. Why should they, since Heb 11:5-13 includes Enoch among those who were strangers on earth and died without having received what was promised:

"All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth."

You then conclude:
"If not then Jesus did not mean what He said, in Hebrews 9:27.

'And as it is appointed unto men (and women) once to die, but after this the judgment.'"

My answer:
Consider Zech 1:5-6. "Where are your forefathers now? And the prophets, DO THEY LIVE FOREVER? But did not my words and my decrees, which I commanded my servants the prophets, overtake your forefathers?" In addition to this you ought to consider what is said about the two WITNESSES in Rev. 11:3, that the Lord would MAKE them prophets, something they were not in the beginning of their calling. For sure both Enoch (jude 14) and Elijah were prophets! So how can prophets become prophets? You see that there is no scriptural basis for positing Elijah and Enoch as the coming two witnesses and prophets.

Greetings
roffa

 

roffa from Norway,

Before I respond to you, please let me ask what is the spiritual climate in Norway? Is you congregation strong and are they leading people to Christ?

Both your Daniel passage and Matthew reading speaks of a future prophecy to our time. This is a common error among some Christians. You would not need to be a Christian in order to flee from Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

If it was a spiritual ascension the Lord would have said that. The bodies of the prophets are real; the ability to stop the rain is factual, the plagues were literal, the bottomless pit is a real place; the O.T. calls Jerusalm ' Sodom . . . '; all nations will see the future event; (not possible in the second century); the partying will be real; the gift giving will be real; the prophets deaths will be literal; the resurrection is noted in vs. 11; fear is real; God's voice will be shouting from Heaven and this is real; their enemies saw these dead men made alive; but all of a sudden the prophet's ascension is allegedly spiritual. No their ascension into Heaven will be literal. You have no convincing thoughts.

I said before, "I believe that those who die in Christ before the rapture, receive a temporary spiritual body as suggested in II Corinthians 5:1-8."

I agree with the latter part of your paragraph above. There will be a distinct even where Jesus returns just for His church. Notice in I Thessalonians 4:16 d that Jesus ONLY raises the dead in Christ from their graves, plus living saints left here on the earth when He comes. The Biblical expression is 'the dead in Christ shall rise . . .' (NO SINNERS WILL ASCEND AT THIS EVENT) The wicked dead will be raised at the close of human history and then Jesus will judge the lost as documented in Revelation 20:11.

I agree with you in your quote written above.

Correct!

Denial of truth is not the best way out, especially when other can read the words from verse 14. Read for yourself. 'And the armies WHICH WERE IN HEAVEN followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.'

You might have caught part of the idea as stated above but God says that the birds of the air will eat the flesh of Christ's enemies slain in battle.
The wicked dead have a ticket to Hell along with the antichrist and the false prophet, as duly noted in the last verses of Revelation chapter 19.

Agreed!

I said before: "why do you see a problem with God calling up His messengers into Heaven after their message from His throne is completed? [Revelation 11:9-12]"

Your answer

You painted yourself in the corner, because Matthew 27:51-53 is saying the opposite of you thought. When Jesus arose from the dead, the dead saints in the cemetery arose also and appeared in the city. They, of course, later died and went to Heaven, until the time when Jesus comes for His church in the hopefully, near future. We will be among those saved and will ever be with the Lord. My point is there are more resurrections that you had thought. Christ ascended into Heaven and we must believe that Elijah and Enoch also will be called up by the authority and power of our Lord.

Read closer in Hebrews 11:5 and you will see that Enoch never died physically speaking, and yet he went to Heaven. He is among the heroes of the O.T. faith.

I have considered Revelation 11:3. God's future message through His prophets, does not diminish whatsoever the fact that they have preached/prophecied under the former covenant. Jude mentions this in verse 14, where he preached about the Second Coming of Christ also noted in Revelation 19:11-21.

The Bible is about a miracle working Lord. He will bring these two prophets back again to preach His Great Tribulation message which will be repent because judgment day is coming and He will return at His Second Coming.

In Matthew chapter 24 God speaks of the Great Tribulation; Josephus nor no other church historian ever has mentioned the era called, the Great Tribulation. This, then, pushes this Divine ly ordained event into a future time.

 

I think they are things, the two olive trees probably represented Enoch and Elija when the LORD gave Zechariah a vision of the two. Zechariah asked the angel of the Lord what were the "two olive trees" (4:11), he replied: "These are the two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth."

John says of the two witnesses, "These are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands that stand before the Lord of the earth." If John saw they same olive trees that Zechariah saw, most likely the two witnesses are two prophets from the past and not contemporary prophets.

 

Prophecynut,

I too had Zechariah 4:14 marked with a reference forward to Revelation 11:4. I love prophecy also and thanks for reminding me of this O.T. reference. I hope everyone reads your post and drinks in the truth of it.

Everything in Revelation eleven is to be taken literally; it will happen in the future. We have a blessed hope before us because of our relationship to the Lord. Keep looking up; keep the faith.

It’s refreshing to hear from someone who knows the truth. It seems that on the board if you say something is white, there is always someone ready to step forward and say, “No it is black.” If I see people write in parts of their posts that are correct, I let them know that I agree with them. I do not see many others doing this.

Thanks again for the inspiration that you have given.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

Compliments are appreciated especially coming from Brain, Th.D., they are a rarity on bulletin boards. Oh, sorry I misspelled you name.
Very seldom do others acknowledge they learn a truth that is contrary to their long held beliefs, instead the clam up and run for cover.

So you love prophecy, same here. When I received Christ I sneeked in the back door. Rev. And Daniel first and then the other prophets of the Bible. I've been in the prophetic word since 1985. Maybe we can interact on prophecy, you seem receptive. If all goes well I may PM you with knowledge that will blow your socks off.

Praise, glory and honor to the one who is, who was, and is to come.

 

I too went for the prophecy first! I was told to read the book of John first, but was drawn like a magnet to Rev!!

I read the whole book first and loved every minute of it. Because after accepting Jesus as my Savior I finally understood some of it.

Praise His Holy name forever and ever!!



Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

Some Christians have drawn back from believing that the prophecy of Revelation 11:8 could be the literal city of Jerusalem. These events are yet future. One of the reasons they doubt that this could be really Jerusalem, is because God appears, at first glance, to be giving a mixed message about said city. At the close of the verse he suggest that the two witnesses will preach ‘ . . . where our Lord was crucified.’ So then we say this must be the holy city of Jerusalem.

But then God calls the city ‘ . . . spiritually the Sodom of Egypt.’ [vs.8b] This used to confuse me until I realized that in the future Great Tribulation [Matthew chapter 24]probably the vast majority will be lost sinners doing what comes natural to them. Therefore, God calls His city ‘ . . . the Sodom of Egypt.

What seals the case, is to realize that often under the O.T. the Lord calls Israel in various cities including Jerusalem, ‘ . . . Sodom and Gomorrah.’ Here are a few to interest you and there are more than these.

Isaiah 1:9, 10; 3:9; Jeremiah 28:14; *23:14; 49:18.

Being Christians we often think of Jerusalem as ‘the holy city.’ We reverence this location because it was where our Lord died for us and our sins. But in Revelation 11, Isaiah and in Jeremiah He views the evil and corruption of the people living in O.T. times and in Revelation 11:8. He allows us to see into the future as to how He really feels toward the unbelievers who will be living in Jerusalem both Israelites and Gentile peoples.

God has not given up on His eternal covenant with Israel even into the future times. In Ezekiel 36:5 the Lord calls Israel ‘ . . . My land,’ and does so in other passages. And He moves on to say that Israel is My people. [Ezekiel 36:12b]

 

sister Tam

Hey, glad to hear of your interest in Rev and prophecy, somewhere it says we are to be blessed from reading Rev, ah there it is, 1:3. Most Christians shun Rev saying its too complicated and not meant to be understood. They can't handle all the symbolism and freaky beasts stomping on the inhabitants of the earth.

I'm sure you've notice how closely Rev. is tied into the OT prophecies, while done of the judgments are related to the Church era.

God bless and have a nice day in the Lord.
There aren't too many days left before he returns for the Church.

 

brother Ray

Hey, we are in one accord, Amen. I hope no one comes on board and accuses us of being anti-Semitic because of our criticism towards Israel

There are a lot of passages in the Bible of God condemning his own people, most of them apply to this present generation. Isa. 1 is a good one, verse 11 has the "sacrifices" and "offerings" the Antichrist "will put an end to" in Dn. 9:27. God says in verse 15 and 21 that their "hands are full of blood," and "murderers" of the Palestinians and Arabs in the Middle East.

I looked up Jer 28:14, seems like you have the wrong numbers.

Check 49:18 again, I believe this to be Edom, see verse 7. According to verse 10 and 18 Edom or southern Jordan will become desolate and uninhabited after the Second Coming.

Eze. 22 is another prophetic condemnation of present Israel.

26- "Her priests do violence to my law;" by following the Talmud and Cabala.

27 - "Her officials within her are like wolves tearing their prey; they shed blood and kill people to make unjust gain."

29 - "The people of the land practice extortion and commit robbery: they oppress the poor and needy and mistreat the alien, denying them justice."

 

My answer to Ray Berrian:

You wrote:
"roffa from Norway,

Before I respond to you, please let me ask what is the spiritual climate in Norway? Is you congregation strong and are they leading people to Christ?"

My answer:
The spiritual climate in Norway is like anywhere else, most ppl having more interest in secular things than in the Scriptures. Concerning my congregation you can read in Zech 6, especially verse 8, which reads:

«Then he called to me, "Look, those going toward the north country have given my Spirit rest in the land of the north." »

Wherever the spirit is it leads ppl to Christ, and it cannot be otherwise. Even more, from the north country shall the realm of Antichrist be conquered and destroyed according to the prophets, for instance Isaiah 41:25-29:

"I have stirred up one from the north, and he comes - one from the rising sun who calls on my name. He treads on rulers as if they were mortar, as if he were a potter treading the clay. Who told of this from the beginning, so we could know, or beforehand, so we could say, 'He was right'? No one told of this, no one foretold it, no one heard any words from you. I was the first to tell Zion, 'Look, here they are!' I gave to Jerusalem a messenger of good tidings. I look but there is no one - no one among them to give counsel, no one to give answer when I ask them. See, they are all false! Their deeds amount to nothing; their images are but wind and confusion."

You quote me on Dan. Dan. 9:26, Matt 24:1-2, and Matt 24:15-16, and say:
"Both your Daniel passage and Matthew reading speaks of a future prophecy to our time. This is a common error among some Christians. You would not need to be a Christian in order to flee from Jerusalem in 70 A.D."

My answer:
What error so-called Christians might make, is no concern of mine here, for the prophetic word of God has both a historical meaning meant for historical Israel and a spiritual meaning meant for spiritual Israel. This fact can be easily shown from Scripture, and you ought to know this twofold character inherent in the word of God. Thus, the historical meaning of Dan. 9:26, Matt 24:1-2 and Matt 24:15-16 was fulfilled, as history shows, when Jesus through his death in the midst of the last seven of sevens (periods of 7 years) maid void the old covenant of circumcision and the "the people of the prince who is to come" (Romans) DESTROYED the city and the sanctuary. This historical fact cannot be denied. The spiritual meaning of these passages do no apply at this point of discussion.

You wrote on the ascension of the two witnesses:
"If it was a spiritual ascension the Lord would have said that. The bodies of the prophets are real; the ability to stop the rain is factual, the plagues were literal, the bottomless pit is a real place; the O.T. calls Jerusalm ' Sodom . . . '; all nations will see the future event; (not possible in the second century); the partying will be real; the gift giving will be real; the prophets deaths will be literal; the resurrection is noted in vs. 11; fear is real; God's voice will be shouting from Heaven and this is real; their enemies saw these dead men made alive; but all of a sudden the prophet's ascension is allegedly spiritual. No their ascension into Heaven will be literal. You have no convincing thoughts.

I said before, "I believe that those who die in Christ before the rapture, receive a temporary spiritual body as suggested in II Corinthians 5:1-8."

My answer:
Listen man, the Lord has clearly said that the physical ascension of saints will be on the LAST day (John 6:54), so it remains only for you to accept his words for what they are without trying to annul them by such fallacies as the rapture-theory. Since there will be no bodily resurrection until on the last day it should be self-evident that everything in the prophetic books that goes under name of ascension or resurrection previous to the last day must by necessity be understood in the symbolical or spiritual sense. In my former later to you I proposed problems that you will face if you keep to the notion of a resurrection happening before the last day, but you seemingly prefer to neglect those problems – as though you could get rid of them that way.

I would also like to refer you to the fact that the so-called ascension of the two witnesses happens in the time of the sixth trumpet, whereas the bodily resurrection of the saints happens at the end of the time of the seventh trumpet, which is the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:52).

When you say that the bodies of the prophets are real, etc., you surely also have a feasible explanation of why there is only ONE STREET in the Jerusalem where the bodies (or body) of the two witnesses are said to lie, and why this so-called Jerusalem has a temple whereas historical Jerusalem of today has got no temple at all, if we leave as such the Muslim mosque out of consideration. When you insist on a literal fulfillment of these prophetic things you in reality overlook that the Greek word 'eseemanen' of Rev. 1:1 means 'signify' or 'show symbolically'. Things are shown through symbolically used words, not by words in their literal sense. That is why those who impose literal meanings on the prophetic words of Revelation end up with all kinds of unbiblical meanings.

Since you also say that I have no convincing thoughts on the resurrection, I would like you to answer the following questions:

1. Were Elijah and Enoch in the OT time taken up into heaven where God is?
2. What is the meaning of what Jesus says John 3:13?: "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven–the Son of Man."
3. What is the meaning of what Jesus says in John. 6:40?: "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
4. Why did Jesus not correct Martha in John 11:24?: "Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

You quoted me and wrote:

quote:

First of all, there is going to be NO RAPTURE as posited by Darby and those who accept his fallacy. Secondly, whatever bodies believers are going to receive on the last day they will by necessity be formed out of their fleshly bodies according to the person's doings while on earth, for Paul the apostle teaches that in 1 Cor. 15:42-44:

"I agree with the latter part of your paragraph above. There will be a distinct even where Jesus returns just for His church. Notice in I Thessalonians 4:16 d that Jesus ONLY raises the dead in Christ from their graves, plus living saints left here on the earth when He comes. The Biblical expression is 'the dead in Christ shall rise . . .' (NO SINNERS WILL ASCEND AT THIS EVENT) The wicked dead will be raised at the close of human history and then Jesus will judge the lost as documented in Revelation 20:11."

My answer:
Listen man, in 1 Thes 4:13-18 Paul the apostle is writing about believers! So why should he then mention the resurrection of unbelievers, who also will be raised according to Scripture? Read for instance Acts 24:15: "and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked", and compare with Dan. 12:2: " Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: SOME to everlasting life, OTHERS to shame and everlasting contempt." So in spite of your unbelief, there can be no doubt that believers and unbelievers will be resurrected at the same time, namely on the LAST day. There is no bodily resurrection found in Scripture to happen between Jesus Christ and the last day, as everyone can be convinced of by reading 1 Cor 15:22-24:

"For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power."

As for the coming of Christ, we can read about it i Acts 1:10-11:

"They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

There is no denying that Jesus Christ will return in a visible manner for all to see him, so the whole rapture-doctrine of the Plymouth-brethren and Darby is a fatal fallacy for those who adopt it.

When you have quoted me:

Revelation 19:14 does say nothing about Christ bringing his saints from heaven to earth, but rather describes the victory of truth over falsehood after the spiritual warfare of Rev. 12:7, which is also foretold by such scriptures as Psalm 149:6-9 and Matt 8:12:


you go on saying this:
«Denial of truth is not the best way out, especially when other can read the words from verse 14. Read for yourself. 'And the armies WHICH WERE IN HEAVEN followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.'»

My answer:
Your problem here is that you do not know that there is a heaven on earth as well, which goes under many names in Scripture, such as covenant, heavenly Jerusalem, Sion, etc. To get my point of argument across I will ask you to explain what heaven means in Dan. 8:10?

"It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. "

This prophecy foretells things to follow the divided Hellenistic world power, so the question is how the little horn, being on earth, could attack and overcome some of the heavenly host. Could the army of the little horn get into heaven and wage war there? No, definitely not, but since this HOST OF THE HEAVENS consisted of ordinary people who were believers of God in this world, the little horn could wage war on them and persecute them. Even though they were still in their flesh on earth they could be called the host of heavens. In like manner is the army of Rev. 19:14, so your argument is lame.

You quote me:

"But the SUBJECTS (or CHILDREN) of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."


and say:
"You might have caught part of the idea as stated above but God says that the birds of the air will eat the flesh of Christ's enemies slain in battle. The wicked dead have a ticket to Hell along with the antichrist and the false prophet, as duly noted in the last verses of Revelation chapter 19."

My answer:
You are wrong, I have not caught just part of the idea, for the the birds of the air are those people who listen to and believe in the everlasting gospel of Rev. 14:6, those who become part of the heavenly army that God is mustering according to Scripture (Isa 13:4) and who will be fulfilling Psalm 149. Do not be spiritually blind! Out of their mouths comes the true testimony of God like fire, as can be seen also from 2 Thes 2:8:

"And then the lawless one will be revealed (BY TRUE DOCTRINE), whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the BREATH OF HIS MOUTH and destroy by the splendor of his coming."


You wrote:
"I said before: "why do you see a problem with God calling up His messengers into Heaven after their message from His throne is completed? [Revelation 11:9-12]"

My answer:
I do not see any problem except your imposition of meanings on Scripture that definitely do not belong to it. When you have answered the questions I have put to you concerning the ascensions of Elijah and Enoch I will return back to this topic and corroborate what I mean.

When I wrote the following thing:

The reason is that the bodily resurrection will not happen until on the last day, as said by Jesus.

you answered:
"You painted yourself in the corner, because Matthew 27:51-53 is saying the opposite of you thought. When Jesus arose from the dead, the dead saints in the cemetery arose also and appeared in the city."

My answer:
No, I did not fall flop. On the contrary, I get a new opportunity to put you a few relevant questions. The English translation found in NIV says that "many holy people who had died were raised to life," so I will ask you what life do you mean they were raised to?

You wrote:
"They, of course, later died and went to Heaven, until the time when Jesus comes for His church in the hopefully, near future. We will be among those saved and will ever be with the Lord. My point is there are more resurrections that you had thought. Christ ascended into Heaven and we must believe that Elijah and Enoch also will be called up by the authority and power of our Lord."

My answer:
Stop messing around! Were these dead people raised up to partake of life on earth, or were they not? If they were not raised up to this life, why then should they die again, as you say? Are you not conjuring up ideas here only in an attempt at saving your own skin, so to say? My point is that you must discern between resurrections and THE RESURRECTION (being made perfect), for the former are effected to testify to some biblical fact, for instance the atonement by Jesus), whereas the latter is the complete resurrection to perfect life and glory (2 Tim 4:8). Finally, remember what is said in John 3:13:

"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven–the Son of Man."

Do you still maintain that Elijah and Enoch are in heaven, thus making these words a lie? And since none of them will be clothed in filthy clothes as was Joshua in Zech 3, you have got to annul at least one of them as candidates.

You wrote:
"Read closer in Hebrews 11:5 and you will see that Enoch never died physically speaking, and yet he went to Heaven. He is among the heroes of the O.T. faith.

My answer is what Jesus said:
"NNE HAS EVER GONE INTO HEAVEN except the one who came from heaven–the Son of Man." Well, do you know this thing better than the Lord himself? Do not make a fool of yourself!

You wrote:
"I have considered Revelation 11:3. God's future message through His prophets, does not diminish whatsoever the fact that they have preached/prophecied under the former covenant. Jude mentions this in verse 14, where he preached about the Second Coming of Christ also noted in Revelation 19:11-21."

My answer:
If you by 'the Second Coming of Christ' mean the coming at which physically dead will be raised to life again you are wrong in connecting that event to what Rev. 19:11-21 describes. Rev. 19 11-21 tells about the spiritual war that God's true people wage on false doctrines on earth in the time of the sixth trumpet, and the story of Rev. 19:1-10 will be the outcome of that war, the same as is described in Rev. 12:7-9. Rev. 12:7-12 shows the events in their correct chronological order, whereas Rev. 19 presents us with the same events without chronological order. If necessary, I will come back to this fact and prove it by Scripture.

You wrote:
"The Bible is about a miracle working Lord. He will bring these two prophets back again to preach His Great Tribulation message which will be repent because judgment day is coming and He will return at His Second Coming."

My answer:
To get an inkling of what this is all about I recommend you to read Mark 10:35-45. The story is as follows:

"Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to him. “Teacher,” they said, “we want you to do for us whatever we ask.” “What do you want me to do for you?” he asked. They replied, “Let one of us sit at your right and the other at your left in your glory.” “You don't know what you are asking,” Jesus said. “Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?” “We can,” they answered. Jesus said to them, “You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. THESE PLACES BELONG TO THOSE FOR WHOM THEY HAVE BEEN PREPARED.”
When the ten heard about this, they became indignant with James and John. Jesus called them together and said, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Why do I broach this discussion of the disciples? Well, according to Scripture the two witnesses will be those TWO who shall sit on either side of the Lord, for they will be the "the rays (or horns) flashed from his hand, where his power was hidden" (Hab 3:4). They are what the two cherubim of Exodus 25:17-22 symbolized:

"Make an atonement cover of pure gold-two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide. And make TWO CHERUBIM out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover. Place the cover on top of the ark and put in the ark the Testimony, which I will give you. There, above the cover between the two cherubim that are over the ark of the Testimony, I will meet with you and give you all my commands for the Israelites."

So these two witnesses are also the ones mentioned in Dan. 8:13-14 and Dan. 12:5-7, and likened to two sheep in Isa. 7:21, whereas the young cow or heifer symbolizes the man child of Rev. 12:5, as do also the man above the waters of the river, who is clothed in linen (Dan. 12:7).

Now remains the question: Why shall they sit on either side of Christ (who is the olive tree and the gold lampstand of Zech. 4:3)? Well, part of the secret is revealed by Jesus in Matt. 19:27-28:

"Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me (true Christians), in the REGENERATION when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Therefore, the two witnesses will therefore be important messengers of God in that time of REGENERATION and JUDGEMENT. This will happen in the midst of NT time, as can be seen from Zech. 11:14 and Hab. 3:2:

"LORD, I have heard thy speech, and was afraid: O LORD, revive thy work IN THE MIDST OF THE YEARS (of NT time), in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy."

The Lord will then start his judgement work as BONDS (Zech. 11:14) and reveal and consume falsehood with the spirit of his mouth (2 Thess 2:8) through his two witnesses and thus bind Satan with his chain (Rev. 20:2). Notice that the Lord will thus "EXECUTE THE JUDGEMENT WRITTEN"! Written where? In the prophetic scriptures.

You wrote:
"In Matthew chapter 24 God speaks of the Great Tribulation; Josephus nor no other church historian ever has mentioned the era called, the Great Tribulation. This, then, pushes this Divine ly ordained event into a future time."

My answer:
Even though the great tribulation has not yet come true it will come in the time of the sixth trumpet or the time of the second woe, as Scripture reveals, which is now, but still, that biblical fact does not back up your wrong ideas about Elijah and Enoch. One additional biblical fact that shows the notion of Elijah and Enoch to be wrong is the following thing in Exodus 25:17-19

"Make an atonement cover of pure gold-two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide. And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; MAKE THE CHERUBIM OF ONE PIECE WITH THE COVER, AT THE TWO ENDS."

Since these two cherubim that symbolizes the two witnesses are OF ONE PIECE WITH THE ATONEMENT COVER which belongs in the most holy place, the two witnesses cannot be two persons like Elijah and Enoch who belong in the temple court or the dispensation of circumcision. If Elijah and Enoch were to become the two witnesses of Rev. 11, it would mean that the two cherubim could not have been of ONE PIECE with the atonement cover, since they in that case would have to be removed from the court to the most holy place. Let this fact settle the issue!

Greetings
roffa

 

prophecynut,

You said,

Thanks for the correction. I gave my best copy of Strong’s to a friend and I kept one given to my by my wife’ grandfather which has inferior paper, plus I highlighted the Sodom passages in blue. This was my problem. Actually, I meant Jeremiah 23:14 where the Lord calls the prophets as unto Him as ‘Sodom’ and the evil doers of Jerusalem as the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.’

Notice He does not hate the land of Israel but those who have done evil before His sight and Presence.

To my understanding Israel has never had a long period of peace with her neighbors. Isaiah 2:2 tells of a future Millennial Temple and the people of the world will come to worship Christ in Jerusalem. [Zechariah 14:9 & 16] During this 1,000 years of Christ's future theocracy He will insure world peace as noted in Isaiah 2:4.

Notice the favored son in God's plan who produced the Son of Promise meaning Jesus. The lineage leading to His birth came through the geneology of Jacob. [vs. 3, 5] Esau was of lesser importance in God's sovereign plan for the ages.

 

Ray

Interesting that you comment on peace, as you say, the only true lasting peace will be during the Millennium.

What about the false peace prophesied? Jer. 23 has a reference to it, verse
17: "They (false prophets) keep saying to those who despise me, 'The LORD says: you will have peace. And to all who follow the stubbornness of their hearts they say, 'No harm will come to you.
This peace precedes the Tribulation when Israel will be judge for her rebellion against God.

I've compiled a list of Scriptures that refer to this false peace.

Jer. 4:10
" 5:14
" 8:11,15
" 23:17

Eze. 13:10,16
" 38:8,11,14

Mic. 3.5

1 Thess. 5:3

Please look up these verses and give me feed back, and if you think I goofed some where let me know.

 

prophecynut,

I am not telling you something you do not know, but at times the prophets in their messages mix their own immediate concerns and flow right into the last days prophetic utterance.

For example, in Micah 4:1 when this prophet speaks of ‘the last days’ he is not speaking about a present concern but projects us into the future to a time just before the Lord returns. Also, in 5:2 there is the promise that the Lord will become Ruler in Israel. While He was on earth He was building a spiritual Kingdom. In 4:1-5 God is speaking about His 1,000 year theocratic reign over the whole earth. While Jesus was here on earth He never ruled over Israel as their monarch. Revelation 20:1-7 repeatedly speaks of this 1,000 year era of time.

Each of your verses must be examined within the total context of the verses set out for our thinking. You said,

Yes, I too agree there will be a brief false peace, most people like us believe it to be about 3 ½ years of the total seven year Great Tribulation.

Your reference in I Thess. 5:3 will be when the world leader/antichrist will promise peace and security for Israel and then after the 3 ½ years end, He will bring great, great trials to all who will not obey His earthly authority.

I can safely say that Ezekiel chapters 36-48 deal with Israel’s national revival that will come to His land and His people, plus the building of the Millennial Temple, and His appearing in the Temple. I think our readers will find that there is never mentioned ‘the Ark of the Covenant’ because ‘the Lord will be in Jerusalem.’ [Ezekiel 48:35; Jehovah-shammah is His Name, meaning, ‘The Lord is there.’

What a day that will be for we His people, both Jewish and Gentile saints.

 

Yep, prophecies can have dual fulfillment, usually one near and the other far off. I don't want to appear as a pickynut but I think 4:1 describes the Mill after the returns. Like verse 3: "They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks." Probably just an oversight on your part.

Can't disagree with that. The other half 6-15 is about the Antichrist from Syria invading Israel (5b-6), the remnant of Jacob during the Mill (7)and the destruction of Israel's enemies (v.9, 15), and God's judgement of Israel (10-14

Many prophecy teachers think the present ingathering of Jews to Israel is the fulfillment of Eze. 36-37. I agree with you that it "will come" after Christ their Messiah returns. Passages like 36:8-11; 24-28; 37:24-28 clearly point to the Mill. Chapters 38-39 concerns the Trib of 3.5 years when the false peace is interrupted by the invasion of Gog/Antichrist and the many nations with him. Then Israel's enemies will be destroyed on the "mountains of Israel at the end of the Trib. Do you share this view?

True, the Ark is not mentioned in Scriptures describing God's Millennial Temple, Eze.40-48. There is reference to it in Jer. 3:16 that strongly implies its existence in the tribulation temple. If you read 14-16 you will see the ingathering of Jews for the Mill. When their numbers have increased greatly, the Ark of the Covenant of the LORD will never enter minds or be remembered, be missed or another one made.

I strongly believe the original Ark will resurface from its chamber underneath Golgotha and be placed in the third temple.

1 Kings 8:8 has an interesting reference to the "poles" that were used to carry the Ark. The poles were long enough to be seen from outside the Holy Place and were never taken out of the rings attached to the Ark. Those poles "are still there today" underneath the Temple Mount. There was a amateur archeologist who found the Ark back in the 80's, his associates continue today in their quest to bring the Ark above ground. You can get the whole story from: http://wyattmuseum.com/ Take me seriously, Ron Wyatt is not a fraud, he's genuine and a born again Christian. I hope someday to participate in one of their archaeological digs to unearth the Ark before the temple is built.

 

prophecynut,

I agreed 100% with your post.

I believe that II Thess. 2:3-12 deals with the antichrist taking his seat in the Great Tribulation Temple as noted in verse four.

I think we are experiencing the 'falling away' right now. Many sinners are getting worse, and yet the Lord is still changing hearts and miracles are still happening.

I talked to a Syrian Christian from Allentown and he said that many Muslims are coming to know and experience the Lord at his church.

He also said that this Muslim woman was driving toward NYC and she saw this bright light, so much so that she pulled off the interstate. Apparently, the Lord revealed Himself in all of His brilliant glory and lighted, eternal glory, as He did to Saul of old. She had a life-threatening health condition, plus she was on different illegal drugs, plus she drank too much by way of lifestyle.

I do not know the details because I have not met the woman, but I sure would like to hear her salvation experience.

The Lord is purifying His people and all the time adding to His flock even in these last days.

Don't you believe that the antichrist will reveal Himself at the beginning of the Great Tribulation?

Have you ever read any books by the Canadian Biblical scholar, Grant R. Jeffrey?

 

I question the Muslim woman's experience, highly unlikely it really happen. The next time anyone sees Jesus on earth will be the Second Coming.

Yes, the falling away from those things of God sure is accelerating. Minor things would be kicking him out of government, schools and publications. Major things would be like homosexuality. Man is definitely in rebellion of Godly standards, did not used to be that way when I was kid.

The AC is definitely revealed at the beginning of the Great Tribualtion that starts in the middle of the 7 year covenant. Some think at the beginning of the covenant, which is a bunch of hogwash.

The AC participates with "many" other nations in confirming the covenant, he does not act alone in signing the covenant with Israel. He's probably a military leader when the 7 year covenant is confirmed. I get this from Dan 7:8. There are ten horns or Muslim nations that will form a confederacy, afterward a "little" horn, which is the AC comes to power and subdues 3 of the former 10. The fact he starts out smaller than the others means he has less authority or power than the other 10.

I do have Grant's book 'ARMAGEDDON Appointment with Destiny' published 1988. Very intelligent person. I quickly looked in to find that he predicted the timing of the 7 year covenant beginning in 1993 and the Second Coming in 2000.
Ah what a bummer, we missed the rapture

 

Hey, did we hijack this thread?

 

This woman had a similar experience [Acts 9:1-8] to that of Saul of Tarsus, who later was named the Apostle Paul.

And since Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever [Hebrews 13:8] I am more inclined to believe her story of God's dealing in her life.

God is not limited to our narrow mindset as to how people can come to know the Lord.

prophecynut, I do not know if you are a Baptist but some of your brethren find it difficult to believe that God remains the miracle working Lord.

 

I don't claim to a "Baptist" mainly because of its denominational connotation. I follow the conservative baptist image, sound doctrine and tenets.

Miracles still happen, but the miraculous signs as attested by the Muslim lady diminished after the apostles. Yes, God is the same yesterday and today except today we have his Word as confirmation and testimony to his plan of salvation.

God has displayed to me unusual signs as a confirmation my upcoming ministry, however I don't consider them miracles. I knew for certain what happen was of God and not myself.

I see by your profile you were born in the mid forties, me too in 1944.

 

prophecynut,

I was born in 1943 while my Dad was in the European Theatre.

I think God can do miracles today and Jesus said after He returned to the Father that His people would do even 'greater works' than He did while on earth. [John 14:12] While I see some Christian workers doing outstanding things, I believe that 'little is much when God is in it.' Even the little that I do can be a blessing.

Although we are not the 'two candlestick' witneses in Revelation 11:4, we still can be His lights in a sin darkened world.

Matthew 5:14a and 5:16 indicates that we should 'Let our light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father Who is in Heaven.'

I am surely not a miracle worker, but I hate to deny what God has said in I Corinthians 12:10a. I know that the Lord has given me the spirit of prophecy/preaching though I have not rocked the world by my flickering light. I am sure people will be in Heaven because of my faithfulness in ministry as is true of most of you on the board.

Miracles are still happening today but sometimes Christians do not want to admit that other preachers of note, are accomplishing His miracles. Nevertheless, we should say, "Praise the Lord! and please, God give your servants greater power for Thy Name."

To my thinking, every time a sinner receives new life in Christ, another miracle has taken place.