The two witnesses... TWO candlesticks...?

Prophecynut wrote: sister Tam

Hey, glad to hear of your interest in Rev and prophecy, somewhere it says we are to be blessed from reading Rev, ah there it is, 1:3. Most Christians shun Rev saying its too complicated and not meant to be understood. They can't handle all the symbolism and freaky beasts stomping on the inhabitants of the earth.

I'm sure you've notice how closely Rev. is tied into the OT prophecies, while done of the judgments are related to the Church era.

God bless and have a nice day in the Lord.
There aren't too many days left before he returns for the Church.

Tam says,

Yes, I have a great interest in Rev and Daniel, and all the prophecies of the Bible.

There are so many things that most people don;t understand about the rapture, the tribulation and all that stuff.

But, praise God, you are right, it won't be long before it's all over and then EVERYONE will know!!!



Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

Prophecynut, Berrian and tamborine lady,

I am really surprised at seeing you cherish notions on Antichrist and his rule, the great tribulation, the 3 1/2 years, the temple and the two witnesses that are totally off the mark biblically speaking.

How come that you do not know these things?

1. Antichrist is no ONE person but all false Christian teachers put together down through NT history, as can be seen from 2 John 7 (NASV: which gives the correct translation from the Greek):

"For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh THIS IS THE DECEIVER AND THE ANTICHRIST."

2. The prophecies on the great and castrophical falling-away in Christianity HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE, the result being a divided church left in confusion (what Babylon means).

3. The 3 1/2 years belong now in the beginning of the time of the sixth trumpet mentioned in the book of Revelation, and that period will not be the time of the great tribulation, but the time given to the two witnesses for warning and advising the world. They DEFINITELY work BEFORE the great tribulation, for during the tribulation nobody can do any work for God's wrath being poured on the world of iniquity.

4. There will never ever be built any temple in Jerusalem to become the temple which is foretold for Israel in the last times. The temple foretold by Ezekiel will be a spiritual temple.

And, why are you so slow in listening? There is not going to be a so-called RAPTURE og RESURRECTION until the last day is come, and death will be the last enemy to be overcome. Do not deceive yourselves in departing from what Scripture says, for if you do so, you shall never ever attain to the promises that God gives his people.

This is a word of severe warning, and if you reject it you shall one day realize that it was given you in earnest by a man of the spirit of the north country (Zech. 6:8).

Greetings
roffa

 

Roffa,

Antichrists have walked this earth during the time of the Apostle John until this very hour. [I John 4:3] They are not always merely religious false teachers who do not believe that Jesus is Divine, but also other wicked outlaws like Hitler, Stalin and Saddam and countless other evil men and women. In a real sense, though we do not think about it in this way, every sinner has the spirit of antichrist in his or her heart, because they are 'children of disobedience' and are 'the children of His wrath.' [Ephesians 2:2-3]

We know of your tradition as to just one Second Coming as taught by the Roman Catholic Church down through the centuries which has been inhaled by some non-Catholics in our times. The truth is that God through Jesus in the hopefully near future will take His people to Heaven to stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ to be evaluated for our works done here on earth for His Name and glory.

Prophecynut, sister Tam and I, know you would like to blacken out I Thessalonians 4:16d out of the Apostle Paul’s teaching about the rapture of His beloved Church. This is the hope of all Christians and Paul offers these words of consolation for his congregations who would go through most difficult times during the early days of Christ’s church. God speaking through Paul said to His people then and to us now: 'Wherefore comfort one another with these words.' Only those who are ‘ . . . in Christ’ will rise to be with Him. If Jesus meant a one time general resurrection He never would have used the word, 'sleep.'[I Thess. 4:13b; 14b; 15b; Only saints who die 'in Christ' are said to have fallen asleep in Jesus. Only those arising at this time and distinct event are those who have 'fallen asleep' and the 'dead in Christ' indicating Christians. Those who are alive physically who are 'in Christ' are the living saints who also will rise with Him.

The wicked dead and living will remain buried in their graves and, of course, the living sinners will be judged just before the end of time as noted in Revelation 20:5 & vs. 11-15.

In I Thessalonians 4:16 Jesus is teaching that He will come for His saints, and in Revelation 22:14 the King of all kings will come with His saints from Heaven. For the full context of the Second Coming you will find it in Revelation 19:11-21.

There is no need to warn the three of us , but you need the eye salve from Him that was offered to the Laodicean Church then, [Revelation 3:14-21 *vs. 18f,g]* and to our Laodicean Churches in our times. When we are not boxed in by our taught traditions, and are open to the Holy Spirit, He promises to teach us all things. [John 14:26 & I John 2:27]

Anyway, God loves all four of us; praise His Name!

 

My sixth answer to Ray Berrian,

You wrote:

"Roffa,

Antichrists have walked this earth during the time of the Apostle John until this very hour. [I John 4:3]"

My answer:
Yes, antichrists have done so, I agree, but the point is that the term Antichrist in singular covers all false teachers in Christianity - all put together. Since the 'anti' means both 'against' and 'in stead of', the word Antichrist points to such people who hold religious beliefs in their heart and mind which are in opposition to and instead of the true faith. Therefore, wordly people who are without a substitute Christian doctrine cannot be reckoned among antichrists.

You wrote:
"They are not always merely religious false teachers who do not believe that Jesus is Divine, but also other wicked outlaws like Hitler, Stalin and Saddam and countless other evil men and women."

My answer:
No, you are now giving another description of antichrists than Scripture itself. Hitler, Stalin and Saddam were no antichrists since they did not claim to be believers in Christ.

You wrote:
"In a real sense, though we do not think about it in this way, every sinner has the spirit of antichrist in his or her heart, because they are 'children of disobedience' and are 'the children of His wrath.' [Ephesians 2:2-3]"

My answer:
No, you are wrong, since in his definition Paul the apostle is including all people who live after the flesh.

If wordly or non-religious people were included in the term Antichrist, then the Scripture would not say the following in 1 John 2:18:

"Dear children, this is THE LAST HOUR (of the true church); and as you have heard that the antichrist IS COMING (but still not come yet), even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. THEY WENT OUT FROM US (!!!), but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

Here Scripture contradicts you, for the antichrists come out from the church! They are simply not merely wordly people like Hitler and Stalin were, or Saddam is.

You wrote:
"We know of your tradition as to just one Second Coming as taught by the Roman Catholic Church down through the centuries which has been inhaled by some non-Catholics in our times."

My answer:
You know nothing about my tradition, and it has got nothing to do with the false Roman Catholic church, which is the first head of the beast of Rev. 13.

Regarding the Second Coming of Christ, the novel doctrine is not mine but that which the Plymouth Brethren and Darby concocted, and which now goes by the name RAPTURE. The fatal thing about it is that it falsely features four comings of Christ, which is contrary to Holy Scripture. The first coming of Jesus Christ was his birth, his second coming according to your fallacy will be the rapture, his third coming will be when he supposedly returns back from heaven to earth with you, and the fourth coming must be when he comes to judge the living and dead.

The main error of rapture-believers is their negligence of the way God ensues his millennial rule on earth, which happens by a spiritual awakening AFTER the falling-away. This awakening is also said to be the coming of Christ, even though it is totally spiritual and through his messengers the two witnesses and BONDS (Zech. 11:14), who is the Branch from his roots, namely Jesu roots remaining after the terrible falling-away.

Everybody who fails to understand and see these secrets in Scripture will not stand in the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth, according to Rev. 3:10.

You wrote:
"The truth is that God through Jesus in the hopefully near future will take His people to Heaven to stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ to be evaluated for our works done here on earth for His Name and glory."

My answer:
No, that is a lie and totally contrary to what Scripture teaches. Nobody will be taken to heaven in the time of the sixth trumpet, which is now, for there is still the time of the seventh trumpet to come, and both periods are 1260 year long, as can be seen from Rev. 12:6,14.

Having said this, I must add that there is nevertheless a severe judgement to be passed in our days, namely the one that ends the rule and time of Antichrist. It is spiritual in the sense that it will be proclaimed by the two witnesses to come upon the whole world, and especially upon false Christianity, and then be executed by God through the great tribulation of Isa. 24. So, those who are said to LIVE (Greek) in Rev. 20:4, are those who are spiritually alive by faith, and "the rest of the dead" (Rev. 20:5) are those who are bodily dead, both saints and non-saints, who will be raised up on the LAST day when Christ returns in person.

You wrote:
"Prophecynut, sister Tam and I, know you would like to blacken out I Thessalonians 4:16d out of the Apostle Paul’s teaching about the rapture of His beloved Church."

My answer:
No, I do not want to blacken out I Thessalonians 4:16d, so that is a lie, for what I want is to point to the fact that the apostle is only speaking about believers, leaving out unbelievers in that scripture. Do not dishonestly impute things to me that are not part of my faith.

You wrote:
"This is the hope of all Christians and Paul offers these words of consolation for his congregations who would go through most difficult times during the early days of Christ’s church. God speaking through Paul said to His people then and to us now: 'Wherefore comfort one another with these words.'"

My answer:
Yes, those words have always been of comfort to children of God, even though they knew them to come true only on the last day.

You wrote:
"Only those who are ‘ . . . in Christ’ will rise to be with Him. If Jesus meant a one time general resurrection He never would have used the word, 'sleep.'[I Thess. 4:13b; 14b; 15b; Only saints who die 'in Christ' are said to have fallen asleep in Jesus. Only those arising at this time and distinct event are those who have 'fallen asleep' and the 'dead in Christ' indicating Christians. Those who are alive physically who are 'in Christ' are the living saints who also will rise with Him."

My answer:
You are wrong about the word "sleep", for in Dan. 12:2 we can see that "sleep" includes both believers and ungodly people. Read for yourself and stop talking in contradiction to Scripture:

"Multitudes WHO SLEEP in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

You wrote:
"The wicked dead and living will remain buried in their graves and, of course, the living sinners will be judged just before the end of time as noted in Revelation 20:5 & vs. 11-15."

My answer:
You are really confused. The wicked dead will not remain buried, for they will, as we just read, come out to experience shame and everlasting contempt while the saints will be honoured.

What Rev. 20:5 etc. tells, is that since this resurrection is spiritual at the beginning of the sixth trumpet's time, there will be no bodily resurrection. This fact is included in what Jesus says in Matt 19:28:

"That ye which have followed me, in the REGENERATION when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Rev. 20:11-15, on the contrary, foretells what will happen after the period of 1260 years, i.e. after the time of the sixth trumpet and at the end of the time of the seventh trumpet, when the last and great judgement day comes. So Rev. 20 foretells two different events of judgement, one spiritual at the beginning of the time of the sixth trumpet, and one historical at the end of the time of the seventh trumpet, which is the last trumpet. Do not mix these two events!

You wrote:
"In I Thessalonians 4:16 Jesus is teaching that He will come for His saints, and in Revelation 22:14 the King of all kings will come with His saints from Heaven. For the full context of the Second Coming you will find it in Revelation 19:11-21."

My answer:
No, you are wrong again, for 1 Thessalonians 4:16 teaches what will happen on the LAST day, speaking solely of believers, whereas Rev. 22:14 tells what happens in the spiritual awakening, which happens in the time of the 6th trumpet (among Gentiles) and also of the 7th trumpet (among Jews).

Revelation 19:11-21 speaks of the the spiritual warfare mentioned in Rev. 12:7-9, when the Lord comes as the Branch (Isa 11:1) and Bonds (Zech. 11:14 and man child (Rev. 12:5 to reveal and devour Antichrist by his powerful word and through the mouth of his witnesses who have not bowed to false doctrines. That is why Rev. 19:16 says this:

"And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

He takes the rule and becomes the spiritual king of a worldly millennium, of which all prophets spoke.

You wrote:
"There is no need to warn the three of us, but you need the eye salve from Him that was offered to the Laodicean Church then, [Revelation 3:14-21 *vs. 18f,g]* and to our Laodicean Churches in our times."

My answer:
Do not what I have told you clearly show that my warning is apposite and necessary? Surely it is! As for the eye salve, what if the man is speaking to you has got the stone laid before him on which the seven spirits of God rest? You never know, so mind your words! As I have told you from Scripture, God has clearly showed you that his spirit will rest in the north country (Zech. 6:8).

You wrote:
"When we are not boxed in by our taught traditions, and are open to the Holy Spirit, He promises to teach us all things. [John 14:26 & I John 2:27]"

My answer:
Yes, so if you trust God, do also trust his word when it reveals these things to you through me. If you do not hear, then for sure you are boxed in by your traditions. Read Isa 28 about the Lord's strange work that he is going to do now:

21For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.


"Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth."

Compare with Hab. 1:5 in its spiritual sense, and you will see that something strange is going on now:


"Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I WILL WORK A WORK IN YOUR DAYS WHICH YE WILL NOT BELIEVE, THOUGH IT BE TOLD YOU." (KJV)

You wrote:
"Anyway, God loves all four of us; praise His Name!"

My answer:
Yes, but he hate falsehood and false doctrines that are propagated in his name.

Greetings
roffa

 

Hey Ray, I seriously don't think roffa is one of us, he's not of the same Spirit

 

Roffa,

As to the words of Daniel in 12:2 Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer says in Volume II p. 149 in his “Systematic Theology”:

‘The restriction is to be noted in the words, “many of them, ”which is clearly not all that sleep in the dust of the earth. Doubtless those not raised at that time are the unregenerate Gentiles of whose resurrection there is specific revelation (cf. John 5:28; Rev. 20:12).’

Dr. Charles C. Ryrie, Dr. Paul Enns, and Dr. Culver disagree with your theory, but agree with my Biblical exegesis. Dr. Robert D. Culver, Th.D. Professor of Bible, Northwestern College, Minneapolis, Minnesota says this in the “Wycliffe Bible Commentary on p. 798:

‘Daniel 12:2 refers to righteous Israel only. Other passages which speak of three stages in resurrection (that of Christ, that of his saints, that of the rest of the dead) Those priests and prophets of the O.T. easily recognized that only the Godly, dead are said to have ‘fallen asleep’ in Christ. I was surprised that you did not know this fact.

Roffa, you need to research the word, ‘sleep’ in all of the N.T. and you will conclude that ‘sleep’ always refers to the death of a Christian. Note: the death and resurrection of Lazarus and the passage in I Corinthians 11 dealing with the Holy Communion service of the early church. There are others so you might want to look at your concordance.

Dr. Paul P. Enns, Th.D. from Dallas Seminary says on page 70 of his book, “The Moody Handbook of Theology”:

(Daniel 12:2). ‘These resurrections will undoubtedly be separated by the Millennial Age.’

When the Apostle John is voicing the truth coming from the heart of Jesus, he is saying that those who are going to experience the ‘second death’ are those who will rise from their graves after the literal Millennium [Revelation 20:5-6] and then the Great White Throne Judgment will be convened [Revelation 20:11] at the end of human history by Jesus Christ in judging all lost souls.

When Jesus speaks of the Last Day in St. John, He means the last day on earth for the saints when they are taken to Heaven at the rapture event. We are His great interest and the apple of His eye, says the O.T. passage.

Nevertheless, Jesus will come with His justice and wrath at the judgment of the lost.

Christians will be judged not as to whether they have salvation or not, but for our service to the King of kings and the Lord of lords. [II Cor. 5:10 & Romans 14:10]

The wicked, meaning all sinners, will be judged by the Lord at His Great White Throne Judgment as described in Revelation 20:11. Revelation 20:11 declares that the earth and Heaven fled away from all of them. It might be that Jesus has at that time already resurrected the wicked and they are in an eternal body, meaning non-physical, because they all will be judged from His books, and all cast into the Lake of Fire for an eternity of fire and separation from the Lord’s magnificent glory and holiness.

Rev. Berrian, Th.D.

 

My seventh answer to Ray Berrian,

You wrote:

"Roffa,

As to the words of Daniel in 12:2 Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer says in Volume II p. 149 in his “Systematic Theology”:

‘The restriction is to be noted in the words, “many of them, ”which is clearly not all that sleep in the dust of the earth. Doubtless those not raised at that time are the unregenerate Gentiles of whose resurrection there is specific revelation (cf. John 5:28; Rev. 20:12).’"

My answer:
Why do you try to divert attention from what was in question? You said that the word "sleep" was used only of believers whereas I said and have now also proved by Dan. 12:2 that even unbelievers or the ungodly "sleep". That was the point here, from which you try to escape.

Regarding your Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer and what he says in his "Systematic Theology," I could not care less. My authority is Scripture, not a fallible human being. What he says about "the restriction" in the words "many of them," is a very doubtful claim of his in the light of Scripture itself. Yong's literal translation renders Dan. 12:2 in a way that cannot be understood as "many but not all the dead ...":

1. And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. (Yong's literal translation)

I know that the Hebrew word for multitudes (rabbim) is used without the definite article, but that does not settle the case. The question is what is the subject of the sentence in question, is it "many" (rabbim) or is it "these" (elleh). As you surely know an ordinary Hebrew sentence starts with a verbal phrase if there is no adverbial phrase in the beginning, and then follow the subject and object of the sentence. In our case, Dan. 12:2 uses "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth" (KJV) at the place of the AdP, and next to it comes the verb followed by the pronoun 'these'. Yong's translation is a good solution, but it would also be able to translate the Hebrew sentence to the following effect:

"In great numbers will be raised up (both) these bound for everlasting life and those bound for everlasting shame and contempt."

The Hebrew pronoun is at the place of the sentence subject and is therefore best understood to be the subject.

You wrote:
"Dr. Charles C. Ryrie, Dr. Paul Enns, and Dr. Culver disagree with your theory, but agree with my Biblical exegesis. Dr. Robert D. Culver, Th.D. Professor of Bible, Northwestern College, Minneapolis, Minnesota says this in the “Wycliffe Bible Commentary on p. 798:

‘Daniel 12:2 refers to righteous Israel only."

My answer:
All these honoured men of yours are at fault in spite of their amount of scholarship, for Holy Scripture shows them to be wrong. There is not even a jot of evidence for claiming that Dan. 12:2 refers EXCLUSIVELY to righteous Israel. They are lost.

You wrote:
"Other passages which speak of three stages in resurrection (that of Christ, that of his saints, that of the rest of the dead) Those priests and prophets of the O.T. easily recognized that only the Godly, dead are said to have ‘fallen asleep’ in Christ. I was surprised that you did not know this fact."

My answer:
Since you are so surprised I challenged you to prove your words with Scripture. You have a lost case, I you, for all of Scripture shows you to be wrong.

You wrote:
"Roffa, you need to research the word, ‘sleep’ in all of the N.T. and you will conclude that ‘sleep’ always refers to the death of a Christian."

My answer:
Stop babbling, for Dan. 12:2 clearly uses the word 'sleep' of dead believers as well as of dead unbelieves. You cannot deny that fact, for it is there for everybody to see!

You wrote:
"Note: the death and resurrection of Lazarus and the passage in I Corinthians 11 dealing with the Holy Communion service of the early church. There are others so you might want to look at your concordance."

My answer:
So what, the case of Lazarus' resurrection does not annul what Dan. 12:2 says. By the way, 1 Cor. 11:29-30 contradicts you, for these verses deals with unworthy people and say they sleep.

You wrote:
"Dr. Paul P. Enns, Th.D. from Dallas Seminary says on page 70 of his book, “The Moody Handbook of Theology”:

(Daniel 12:2). ‘These resurrections will undoubtedly be separated by the Millennial Age.’"

My answer:
Let me say it as it is: hogwash! What is called "resurrection" and happens before the last day, or before or in the beginning of the Millennium, is spiritual renewal and rebirth, never ever a bodily resurrection. The lot of you are totally amiss.

You wrote:
"When the Apostle John is voicing the truth coming from the heart of Jesus, he is saying that those who are going to experience the ‘second death’ are those who will rise from their graves after the literal Millennium [Revelation 20:5-6] and then the Great White Throne Judgment will be convened [Revelation 20:11] at the end of human history by Jesus Christ in judging all lost souls."

My answer:
All people, both saints and ungodly will rise from their graves after the millennium, there is no difference, what Dan. 12:2 shows. Why do you contradict Scripture?

You wrote:
"When Jesus speaks of the Last Day in St. John, He means the last day on earth for the saints when they are taken to Heaven at the rapture event. We are His great interest and the apple of His eye, says the O.T. passage."

My answer:
Same biblically unfounded rant over again! Can you prove from Scripture that what Jesus speaks about IS NOT SPIRITUAL REBIRTH, and can you prove from Scripture that coming to faith is not a resurrection? If you cannot, stop then making spiritual things literal and literal things spiritual!

You wrote:
"Nevertheless, Jesus will come with His justice and wrath at the judgment of the lost."

My answer:
Yes, and he says in his Scripture, i.e. Psalm 149, that he will execute it through his followers, his believers, who shall reveal the falsehood of fallen Christians, those antichrists. That is the gist of what Jesus have said.

You wrote:
"Christians will be judged not as to whether they have salvation or not, but for our service to the King of kings and the Lord of lords. [II Cor. 5:10 & Romans 14:10]"

My answer:
Okay, so who are those that will be forcefully thrown out of the kingdom of God? Are they just Catholics, or?

You wrote:
"The wicked, meaning all sinners, will be judged by the Lord at His Great White Throne Judgment as described in Revelation 20:11. Revelation 20:11 declares that the earth and Heaven fled away from all of them."

My answer:
The original language says that John saw THE DEAD, that is, all the dead, so also you and I will be there standing at his great throne, nobody missing. At that time he divides humanity, some to his right side and some to his left. So, do not deceiver yourself by unbiblical notions.

You wrote:
"It might be that Jesus has at that time already resurrected the wicked and they are in an eternal body, meaning non-physical, because they all will be judged from His books, and all cast into the Lake of Fire for an eternity of fire and separation from the Lord’s magnificent glory and holiness.

Rev. Berrian, Th.D."

My answer:
Mr. Berrian, all people will be judged from what is found in the books, not only the wicked. The difference is that true believers have a mediator whereas non-believers have not.

Greetings
roffa

 

Roffa,

I respect our familiar faith in the Lord Jesus.

I have made my exegetical understanding not through a personal interpretation but by using the writings of other scholars. This makes the truth more authorative.

You disagreed with me on almost every point, so you need to resurrect some new study skills and views perhaps after the holidays.

An easy truth to understand is that of various Christians that did not partake of the Eucharist worthily. You will find three, progressively stronger disciplines or chastisements that the Lord inflicts on His own people. Vs. 30 says, ‘weakness, sickness and death.’ God assures us that even those who died in the faith were taken to Heaven prematurely. It took me a few years to finally admit that this is the only meaning that can be deducted from this passage of Divine truth.

This is especially difficult for Arminians to swallow because of their view as to falling from grace. Don’t get me wrong I find myself in the Arminian group but came to believe in the perfect security of the born of the Spirit Christian. After all there are no other kind.

Again, the word, ‘sleep’ is only used with reference to Jesus’ disciples/Christians.

Merry Christmas to you and all those you care about.

Ray

 

What about this verse:

Dn. 1-2 - At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people (Jews) will arise.....But at that time your people - everyone whose name is found written in the book - will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake;.....

 

Prophecynut,

I think you are referring to the Book of Daniel chapter 12:1-3.

The words ‘and many of them who sleep’ suggests to us that the prophet is not speaking about all of the dead bodies.

I am sure we both agree that this passage is speaking about a future desolation in the land of Israel, produced by the cruelty of the coming antichrist.

Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer says, ‘ . . . that only Daniel’s people, or Israel who are in view. Having made reference to the incomparable trial that is predicted for Israel, the prophet declares, “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2) {end quote}

When Chafer speaks of ‘the incomparable trial’ he means the Great Tribulation where beheading will be the order of every day. [Revelation 20:4]

It is also my understanding that one of the main missions of the archangel Michael is the
protection of Israel, God’s chosen people; at a future time Jesus will take His throne in the Millennial Temple in Jerusalem. [Zechariah chapter 14] The archangel Michael is now and will be during the Great Tribulation Israel’s patron and protector. In Daniel 10:21 God told the Prophet Daniel that the archangel, Michael is ‘ . . . your prince.’

In the Wycliffe Bible Commentary p. 798, Dr. Culver says this.

‘That this passage describes a selective resurrection is agreed not only by many premillennial scholars but also by some amillennialists (e.g., Keil) See R. Culver, Daniel and the Latter Days, pp. 172-176; Tregelles, Remarks, in loco.

I was always told not to throw out ten verses that you do understand because of one that has a shrouded meaning at least at this time; later you might understand it, as one studies and is aided by the Holy Spirit so as to understand. All reference to people who ‘sleep’ refers to a believer in Jehovah Lord/ Jesus our Lord.

All of the wicked dead will be raised by Christ at the end of time and after Jesus' 1,000 year theocracy on this earth. Some may not know this verse so I will include it for them. [Revelation 20:5] Think about it. If He had a judgment way before the Millennial reign He would have to preside over another judgment of the wicked for those who refuse Him during the Millennial reign. Either way, every knee will bow to our majestic Lord. There is only one Great White Throne Judgment as noted in Revelation 20:11.

One of Jesus’ closest friends was Lazarus. You know the story. It is rather noteworthy that Jesus speaks of Lazarus as being dead and says it in another unique way. Our Lord said, ‘Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. [John 11:11] In the Bible the true believer is always spoken of as fallen ‘asleep’ or at least when you see it stated in the Word of God about saved people. Many Jews became the elect on Lazarus’ day of physical resurrection, because they ‘ . . . believe on Him.’ [vs. 45]

As to the Hebrew word for 'many' in Daniel 12:2 it is the word, {rab} suggesting an abundant number. So a large group of believers that 'sleep' will arise to everlasting life. The unsaved will be raised as the Apostle John says in Revelation 20:5.

Regards . . .
Ray

 

Two thumbs up for your comments on Daniel prophesying about Israel desolation in that day.

In your previous post you said: "The word "sheep" is only used with reference to Jesus' desciples/Christians." I questioned this because of Dn. 12:2, now I see you include all the elect who have been chosen by God.

For this I'll give you another

Although all the righteous, except the Church, will awake to everlasting life at the Second Coming this passage specifically refers to Daniel's people the Jews. Other Jews and all others will awake to "shame and everlasting contempt" a thousand years later." I really don't think the Church should be included in the context of this passage.

 

My eighth answer to Ray Berrrian,

You wrote:
"Roffa,

I respect our familiar faith in the Lord Jesus.

I have made my exegetical understanding not through a personal interpretation but by using the writings of other scholars. This makes the truth more authorative."

My answer:
What is a personal interpretation if not all interpretations are personal in that they have their origion in what some ONE person came up with in the beginning? Is a so-called personal interpretation possibly worse than a non-personal interpretation. What I mean to say is that what the Bible teaches and a Christian believes in cannot be personal in a negative sense, for every Christian who is a Christian, that is led by the Holy Spirit, is taught by God, not by men. Not so with a person who is led by men, scholars so to say, for Scripture says that everyone shall be taught by the Lord himself and have no need to ask fellow beings.

You wrote:
"You disagreed with me on almost every point, so you need to resurrect some new study skills and views perhaps after the holidays."

My answer:
My disagreement is based on what I see in Scripture, so when you oppose Scripture I must by necessity disagree with you. Every Christian must keep himself closely to Scripture and not let any man lead him or her astray by human figments that have no basis in Scripture. Where I have disagreed with you I have explained why or put you relevant questions to show what problems you are up against if you keep maintaining what you do in opposition to Scripture. You usually do not care, dare or cannot answer my questions, so maybe you think that you have got rid of them in an honest and respectable way, which you have not.

I need no new skills, as you suggest, for Scripture itself makes me fit for expounding Scripture, as the apostle also said for himself.

You wrote:
"An easy truth to understand is that of various Christians that did not partake of the Eucharist worthily. You will find three, progressively stronger disciplines or chastisements that the Lord inflicts on His own people. Vs. 30 says, ‘weakness, sickness and death.’ God assures us that even those who died in the faith were taken to Heaven prematurely. It took me a few years to finally admit that this is the only meaning that can be deducted from this passage of Divine truth."

My answer:
Your authorities have led you a long way astray, for since the Eucharist belonged to the first dispensation of the NEW COVENANT, it went down with the coming of the falling-away, the result of which are all the divided churches of today.

If anyone keeeps himself or herself to that dispensation's practices, he is actually denying the fulfillment of the prophecies that say that the falling-away should be total, and the night total spiritually speaking.

You wrote:
"This is especially difficult for Arminians to swallow because of their view as to falling from grace. Don’t get me wrong I find myself in the Arminian group but came to believe in the perfect security of the born of the Spirit Christian. After all there are no other kind."

My answer:
So, if you are one of the born of the Spirit, you can, I hope, answer me on these three questions:

1. Must I be(come) a Baptist to be saved?

2. Must I belong to the true church of God to be saved?

3. Are your answers to the 1. and 2. question in harmony with one another?

You wrote:
"Again, the word, ‘sleep’ is only used with reference to Jesus’ disciples/Christians.

Merry Christmas to you and all those you care about.

Ray"

My answer:
Well, you are talking of the Greek word 'koimaomai', of which there are not many instances in our Bible manuscripts. The big question is now:

How can you mean that these few instances of 'sleep' give you the right to set up the dogma that there will be bodily resurrections (for perfection) BETWEEN the resurrection of Jesus and the very LAST day?

The question is relevant since the Hebrew uses the verb 'sleep' of both believers and non-believers, who are resurrected at the same time, namely on the last day. Your claim seems to make an inconsistence between OT and NT that is not there!

Greetings
roffa

PS In my earlier writings to you I have challenged you to come forth and explain to me how the resurrections mentioned in the Bible shall be understood without making interversal conflicts, as your claim really does now. You have not yet come forth with your bible-based solutions.

 

My ninth writing to Ray Berrian:

You wrote this:

"Prophecynut,

I think you are referring to the Book of Daniel chapter 12:1-3.

The words ‘and many of them who sleep’ suggests to us that the prophet is not speaking about all of the dead bodies.

I am sure we both agree that this passage is speaking about a future desolation in the land of Israel, produced by the cruelty of the coming antichrist."

My comment:
Mr. Berrian, you should know from Scripture that the falling-away and Antichrist has its time when the sixth trumpet has been sounded, and that period of time deals with the Gentiles. When the seventh trumpet sounds, then is the time of historical Israel, and they will accept Jesus Christ as their promised Saviour.

The Jews as a people will never bow to Antichrist or accept his abominable doctrines.

You wrote:
"Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer says, ‘ . . . that only Daniel’s people, or Israel who are in view. Having made reference to the incomparable trial that is predicted for Israel, the prophet declares, “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2) {end quote}

When Chafer speaks of ‘the incomparable trial’ he means the Great Tribulation where beheading will be the order of every day. [Revelation 20:4]"

My comment:
The whole world will be tried, not only Israel, and Rev. 20:4 speaks of things belonging in the time of the sixth trumpet, which has nothing to do with Israel.

You wrote:
"It is also my understanding that one of the main missions of the archangel Michael is the
protection of Israel, God’s chosen people; at a future time Jesus will take His throne in the Millennial Temple in Jerusalem. [Zechariah chapter 14] The archangel Michael is now and will be during the Great Tribulation Israel’s patron and protector. In Daniel 10:21 God told the Prophet Daniel that the archangel, Michael is ‘ . . . your prince.’"

My comment:
There will be no millennial temple in Israel, and Michael is the man child in Rev. 12:5. These things belong in the sixth trumpet's time and do not bare on Israel.

You wrote:
"In the Wycliffe Bible Commentary p. 798, Dr. Culver says this.

‘That this passage describes a selective resurrection is agreed not only by many premillennial scholars but also by some amillennialists (e.g., Keil) See R. Culver, Daniel and the Latter Days, pp. 172-176; Tregelles, Remarks, in loco."

My comment:
There is no selective resurrection taught in the bible, as far as time is concerned, for all humanity will be raised at the same time.

Greetings
roffa

I will comment the rest later.