1 Corinthians ch 11

The reason Paul says anything about attire or hair styles has nothing to do with its association with ill repute. He says very plainly that it has to do with rank and nature.

Still waiting.

 

Brother Aaron,
Excellent post! That is right it has to do with God's government. And I am so blessed that He chose women to wear the badge on their heads of His order. I think modesty is just one of the added benefits though. Do you think so?

HCL

 

I'm not sure if God gives something(like glory) it should be hidden. Wheres that at?
And according tow hat you said a few months ago on teh womens forum, then she (Luke7 woman) was in sin anyway as she had her hair down and not pinned up. You once told us it wasn't right for a woman to not pin up her hair. Yet Jesus doesn't say anything. hummm

 

When you studied this in 1 cor. did you also study the people Paul was writting to, and what the culture there was like at that time, and what prompted him to write this?

 

Dear Sister Katie,
My understanding of the text and glory is that women are the glory of men. And our hair is our glory. We hide our glory to give God, not man the glory. I know that for me my hair is my glory as it is beautiful to look at. I am not saying that to brag. But, most women's hair is beautiful and it attracts attention, would you agree?

With my glory covered the attention is on God not me. But the attention is diverted to His glory.

As far as my statements in previous threads I will say now that I personally pin my hair up to cover my glory. For me that is the way I personally cover my glory, under my headship veiling.

It also helps me with my daily work as I have very long hair and it keeps it out of the way. I know there are women who wear their glory down but covered. I know the verse just says that a woman ought to cover her head there are not specifics about up of down that I see personally. And if I said that you must have your hair up in a previous thread I am sorry about the confusion.

HCL

[ December 08, 2002, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Headcoveredlady ]

 

Dear Sister Katie,
Yes, I studied this issue as well because I wanted to be absolutely sure that before I made such a statment that this was what the Lord would have me to do.

In 1 Corinthians 1:2, "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that IN EVERY PLACE call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours."

It is interesting to note that the book of 1 Corinthians begins with this: "that all in every place".

And the other thing that helped me see that it was not just for Paul's day was the Lord's Supper which is in the same chapter is practiced today.

And in my best understanding of the text it speaks about God's government, something which does not change with time. God is a God of order, not chaos. And the symbol of headship, the covered woman is a testimony of His order. This does not change.

In my opinion, the Church now is in dire need of reminders of God's order.

hcl

 

katie,

The veil thing may be cultural, but the text is clear that the symbols of rank (whatever they are) should be present.

Verse three is the thesis statement: "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

The succeeding verses speak to the fact that each one under authority should honor his or her head. He appeals to creation vs. 8 & 9, nature vs. 13 & 14, and to the angels vs. 10, to make his points.

Even if I grant that hair-length and garb are determined culturally, there is still the issue of maintaining the symbol of rank.

My question is: What is that symbol? It appears to me that the argument could be made that skirts are that symbol in American society.

 

Aaron, I'm not argueing against the order of authority at all. But I do not see that a person needs a symbol of t if they are living it. I don't have to prove anyhing to anyone else, if my husband knows the difference, and God knows the difference, then the symbol is to convince other people, I don't have to prove anything to anyone. Nor am I going to be answerable to man. But God alone.

 

You want to show the authority over a woman, then do a survey and ask the general public when they see a woman with her head covered, do they see it as them saying their husband has authority over htem, or when they see a woman wearing a dress do they see it as a symbol that their husband has authority over them. I don't think you'll get those types of answers, so if it is cultural, then neither is cultrual for us in this country as a symbol of authority.

 

Katie: So are you saying that portions of the scripture only apply to that time period and that culture? So is homosexuality okay now? How about fornication? Witchcraft? Adultery? If you're gonna say that the Bible is culturally relevant, and only to a certain period of time, you may as well go all out.

 

I always wear a hat to worship meetings, because of the above. However, several have told me that it is not necessary, some even think that it is silly of me - what do you think? Or rather how do you read this piece of scripture?

________________________________________________

Let's remember the original thread starter, and the question asked, and answer that question rather than getting into personal observances. The question was wearing a HAT, as was the custom of the time.

Yes, we must consider customs when trying to understand a particular passage of scripture. Culture does enter into the picture, and some cultural practices have gone out of fashion with the passage of time and modernization.

Cheers,

Jim,
Moderator

 

Ok, I would like to share a testimony of my informal, and unscientific study of what a headcovering in my culture means. I say uscientific because it has been from my personal observation. Since I have not worn it for most of my life I can tell there has been a big difference in the way I have been treated by men since wearing the headship veiling.

The first thing I have noticed is that men are much more willing to give their seats up for me, carry boxes, open doors, assist me with my coat, pick up my stroller, hold open elevator doors, and many other treatments like this. I have noticed in particular that men that are of the age of 40 and up do these things more than younger men.

So, in my culture I believe that wearing the headcovering does make a statement to those around me that I am willing to take my place in God's order of creation. Whether or not they think this actual thought I am not sure, but from my observation of my culture there seems to be many men who are pleased to see women in headcovering and dresses and enjoy helping them.

always wear a hat to worship meetings, because of the above. However, several have told me that it is not necessary, some even think that it is silly of me - what do you think? Or rather how do you read this piece of scripture?



HCL

[ December 09, 2002, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Jim1999 ]

 

LOne Wolf, I said no such thing, and don't you dare put words in my mouth. I was answering Aaron, pay more attention from now on. If you want to bash someone, bash someone else. I'm sick of it.

 

All I know is that a part of good correct bible study is paying attent to who was saying something, who they were saying it too,a\nd why they said it.
I guess it all depends on if a person wants t read God's woprd or thwir own in the scripture.

 

Ahhh, the love. Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

Katie, from a simple observation of your posts on this topic, it appears that you are attemtpting to say that this scripture is culturally relevant. If that is not what you are saying, I apologize. However, I would appreciate it if you would make it a little clearer.

 

First, I think the general public scorns I Cor. 11:3, and the popular culture rages against traditional gender roles.

So, if I look to the culture, I most likely will have to look at the objects of its scorn to get an idea of what that particular culture sees as the symbol of submission.

I'll think about that, but what, in your eyes, is the symbol of a woman's submission in this culture?

It is still considered polite for a man to remove his hat in the presence of a lady, but the lady does not remove her's in the presence of a gentleman. That tradition is scorned by popular culture, so maybe the hat thing is still the right thing.

I don't know, what do you think?

 

HCL, not trying to debate here but I would love for you to answer some questions, okay?
You speak so often of how wearing dresses/headcovering has made a large difference in your Christian walk, the experiences being on a personal level, correct? And I believe all here agree that the woman that came to Christ and washed His feet was a sinner, and probably had her head uncovered or her locks loose, correct? At such time, Jesus forgave her sins, meaning thru her faith she found salvation, correct? So, are you saying after she received forgiveness of her sins, she then covered her head? In other words, does God command that all Christian women cover their heads and wear dresses/skirts, no if's, and's or but's, no gray area here, it's cut and dry? In other words, it is either a personal choice for you and other women, or there are a lot of Christian women out there who refuse to submit to God's commandments?
Sue

 

First, I think the general public scorns I Cor. 11:3, and the popular culture rages against traditional gender roles.

So, if I look to the culture, I most likely will have to look at the objects of its scorn to get an idea of what that particular culture sees as the symbol of submission.

I'll think about that, but what, in your eyes, is the symbol of a woman's submission in this culture?

It is still considered polite for a man to remove his hat in the presence of a lady, but the lady does not remove her's in the presence of a gentleman. That tradition is scorned by popular culture, so maybe the hat thing is still the right thing.

I don't know, what do you think?[/QB][/QUOTE]

Sister Suelyn,
I am quoting Aaron's post above to help me answer your question. Brother Aaron said that our culture scorns the idea of 1 Corinthians 11:3. Why do you think that is?

BTW, I agree with his statement wholeheartedly that our culture scorns and hates what is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 11:3 as it stands alone as a verse not including the direction to wear the headcovering. Would you agree that our culture today in 2002 does not as a whole teach that women are to get under a male authority, ie, father or husband?

There was a time in my life that I too hated anything other than egalitarianism, (sp). This has not been easy for me to adapt to either. First of all understanding that God has an order of rank and that I am to get in my place of His order. I am not saying that you hate God's order but I wonder what you think of 1 Corinthians 11:3.

You asked me if I felt that all Christian women should wear the headship veiling. And I say to that yes. Now, before you get upset I want to say that the Lord works on all of us differently.

If you would have told me five years ago that I would be wearing a headship veiling I would have told you were crazy that that was only for legalist people who were trying to buy their salvation or were caught in time.

But, as I read more in the Word verses like these:Romans 12:1-2, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrafice, holy acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world; but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable perfect will of God."

The world tells me that I am my own woman, I can do as I please, I do not need any man to tell me anything. That is the culture in which I was raised and worked in. But, when I see that the Lord has called me to get in my place under my husband it does not agree with the culture around me. Even sadly that of the culture in the Body of Christ.

About the woman who wiped Jesus's feet, you asked me if I thought she immediately covered her head. The Scripture does not say, but I think eventually she might have done this.

HCL

 

After thinking for awhile I realized that not only is it customary for a man to remove his hat in the presence of a lady, but also when saying a public prayer.

The ladies keep theirs on.

Certainly the popular culture has discarded almost every vestige of what was considered proper for ladies and gentlemen, yet those who practice these things are still considered polite and proper.

If Paul was referring to observing cultural distinctions, did he mean true culture or popular culture? Is he referring to those cultural distinctions that are still considered right and proper, or is he referring to popular opinion?