1 Corinthians ch 11

With all due respect Aaron I think he is referring to God's order of government which is unchanging with culture.

Also, it seems that God speaking through Paul used the covered HEAD of a woman to represent HEADship.

HCL

[ December 10, 2002, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Headcoveredlady ]

 

There was a period in history when men did not remove their hats. The hat could be used to conceal a weapon. The doffing of a hat came in much later. It was a doff of the hat and not complete removal. Over time, men started to completely remove their hats indoors and as they greeted a lady.

Cultural norms change from generation to generation; sometimes for the better and sometimes not.

I see people at sports events who don't even remove their caps during the national anthem. How many people stop and remove their hat as a funeral procession passes by? This was a cultural norm where I grew up, but seldom seen to-day.

Cheers,

Jim

 

HCL, first let me thank you for referring to me as Sister, hopefully that is your way of saying I'm a Christian woman, such as to be your sister in Christ.
I believe you answered my question, you see Christian women that don't wear dresses/skirts or a head covering as being out of God's perfect will. In other words, they are living their Christian lives in sin. And I am, of course, in that enormous gathering. Then you ask me not to get mad, believe me, I did not in the least get angry. Your answer was exactly what I was expecting.

This statement tells me you still hate it, and that you still have a problem with it. I do not hate nor do most Christian women, the role of a Christian wife or mother. I have no problem of submitting to my husband, no problem seeing him as the head in our home. I never have, I was also under the authority of my father, and I had no problem there either. My childhood was a very wonderful time in my life, Christian home, Christian parents, and a Bible believing church home. My mother did teach me to be a good wife and mother, by her own actions. I know that there are a lot of women that did not have the blessing I did as a child, apparently you are one of these. But, with each post you make, whether it is about head coverings or wearing loose flowing dresses, you seem to be saying you have had, (and still do) a problem submitting to your own husband, in general, but to God. This is possibly why the Holy Spirit led you to wear your head covering, to help you to be what you never learned while you were a child, knowing that this was the one thing that might stand in the way of your relationship with God and your husband. But in all honesty, I don't know.
About 1 Corinthians chapter 11, the entire chapter, okay? A letter from Paul to the church in Corinth, this is what 1 Corinthians is. The church was apparently having some difficulties, the reason for this is that at that time, the members that made up this church had come from several different cultures. Apparently in some of the cultures, they wore head coverings, and some did not, according to each persons back ground. These things were causing contention. Paul is also saying this is a rather petty thing, allowing it to interfere with your worship of God. In verse 15, Paul refers to the cover as your own hair, not a piece of cloth. In other words, there was division in the church because of one groups rules and another group that refused to follow these rules. This controversy over whether they were required to keep their heads covered during worship or not, please note, this was only an issue during their church worship, in verse 16, Paul indicates that the women had some freedom to choose how they would handle the issue.

The Bible tells me that I am my own woman, and that thru Christ, I can do anything. This is the culture I was raised in. I'm sorry that you were not.

The Lord did not call or tell me to be
under my husband, the Lord says to be beside my husband, I am his help mate, in all things. Never would God or my husband want me under but beside is where I and all Christian women belong.
The symbol I wear that shows all others that I am God's child, is the saving grace of Christ. Maybe you don't believe this is very visible, because I don't wear a head covering or dresses/skirts only. 1 Corinthians 13:3-8 & 13, Galatians 5:22-23, & 25, Philippians 4:8-9, Colossians 3:12-17, these verses tell me what a Christian should be, it worked then and it still works today. Sue

 

Sister Sue Lyn,

Thank you for your reply. It sounds as if you were highly blessed in the way you were raised and live.

But, I ask you this? Do you notice what has happened when women removed both the visible symbol and the principle of headship?

I look around me in America today and it is in sad shape as far as families are concerned. I do not see a lifting up of wifehood and motherhood. I just don't see around me families that are in order. I am not saying that there are none, but I see very few.

What I see is jokes about submission, no teaching on it from older women, women who claim they must have careers, and the list goes on and on.

HCL

[ December 10, 2002, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: Headcoveredlady ]

 

Sister Sue Lyn,

Thank you for your reply. It sounds as if you were highly blessed in the way you were raised.

Unfortunately I see different teachings than you have in the churches I have belonged to. I see a disdain for women who put their whole hearts in to submitting, training their children themselves and being keepers at home.

I do not see encouragement to be a Titus two woman or a 1 Peter three woman. I don't see it in practice nor in teaching from women who are older than me.

In fact in the church I now belong to I have had women who are older than me make snide comments to and about me about things that we do that are all related to this area of being a Titus two woman.

I see that women of the world teach you can do anything you want you are the same or better than men. I see women in the church teaching very similar doctrines. When I was in the military I was well thought of in the church I was attending. Once I quit work to raise my children I became unacceptable. Then with alot of other issues I became unacceptable.

Anyway, it has been an uphill battle to learn to be in subjection to my husband. And yes, wearing the covering has helped to serve as a reminder to me.

HCL

 

HCL,
Are you the only woman, that attends your church, that wears a head covering or wears only dresses/skirts? Do you feel that you are a regular member there? I mean, are you attending every time that door is open? And are you saying, that the women that attend your church are mean or spiteful to you because of how you dress? Do your children get teased there by the other children? From your posts I just get the feeling that you are being shunned because of your beliefs. You feel so much alone, that you have been searching the Internet to find other women that believe as you do.
This is what I'm saying and I believe the Bible is saying, there is nothing wrong, with the way you dress, or how you've decided to raise your children. Other Christian women, men or children should never be spiteful to you or your family for your personal beliefs. This is exactly what Paul teaches thru out the New Testament. And on the same hand, nor should you be spiteful to other Christians that don't do as you do. If you are being treated wrongly at your home church, maybe you should try to find another church to attend or possibly try to explain to the other women why you do dress as you do, and in no way, say they are in the wrong because they do not dress as you do. You could be standing on shaky ground by causing contention in your home church. I'll pray that you will search your heart and soul for the answers.
Sue

 

Let me rephrase my question. Is Paul instructing the church to maintain the symbols of authority in the congregation?

If so, what are those symbols.

If not, what is he doing?

 

God's order of goverment exsists if no one wears a headcovering.

What I see is jokes about submission, no teaching on it from older women, women who claim they must have careers, and the list goes on and on.

All of the older women I know all tell younger women they should work, it's the younger women I know who with they could stay home. For whatever reasons they are unable too.
You keep talking about how bad it is in your church. Why are you in a chuch you are so miserable being in? All the things I see you saying about how women who wear dresses only are treated I've never seen people here do that, and I've shown up on church clean up day in a dress, no looks from anyone on that.

Wearing a symbol of authority(headcovering) does not make a woman submissive, it doesn't change the heart, only God changes a heart. And are you saying it can not be done without a headcovering? Well, I beg to differ, I've seen many submissive christian wives, excellent marriages and families, no headcovering. Saying that a woman has to have a headcovering to have a changed heart(soemthing only done by God) is limiting God to only changeing hearts that have covered heads.

 

Sister Katie,
I was replying to Suelyn in the dialogue that her and I were having. I am sorry for the confusion.

Brother Aaron,
I do not know if you are asking me. But, it seems that the headcovering is the appropriate visible symbol of God's headship order. I personally cannot see anything else there.

HCL

 

I'm asking those who say it is culturally determined.

 

But, nevermind. I'm done talking about this issue for now.

 

Aaron, my father always wears a hat or a cap. Through out my childhood, I loved watching my dad get ready for work, he was the manager of an insurance company, he wore a suit and a dress hat every day. On Sundays he always wore a hat to church also, he would place his hat on a coat/hat rack at the front doors of the church, he still wears his dress hats and dress suits, he is 80 years old now, and my dad is still my hero. I actually can't seem to remember seeing any man wear a hat like my father did or still does. Even in the 60's or 70's, very few men wore dress hats to church. The only other man I can remember from my childhood was another insurance man, that went to our church also, huh...maybe it had something to with life insurance? This may need more research!
Sue

 

Suelyn, My father always wore a hat. A dress hat when he wore his suit and a work hat or cap when he worked. He drilled water wells and shallow oil wells. My mother wore hats to church until the late '50's and she stopped wearing hats, but she still wears headscarves. I never did feel comfortable wearing hats. I wear them now when it is very cold or I am out in the sun. I used to wear scarves to protect my hair from the wind.

I know that this is really not following this thread. Just responding to Suelyn whose father wore hats and it reminded me of my parents.