What has ceased?

The ceremonial Law of the OT is no-longer applicable to Christians. I can't think of anything that has 'ceased' from 33 A.D. til the present age, however, in the west, because of our worldliness and the influences of humanism/Rationalism, we don't look for/expect the miraculous, and therefore don't see it often.

 

Clearly, the gifts of Tongues, Interpretation of tongues, Healing, and Miracles have ceased. This is proved by scripture and practical application. Also, new revelation has ceased as God's Word is complete.

All the "rules" of the Law had ceased by the start of the new "church", this includes tithing.

I could go on but won't,

In Christ,
Brian

 

Hmmm...guess I need some Scriptures to back-up the above.

 

Gods Word is complete? With all the arguments people have about translations and versions and such! Give me a break!

And please don't tell that the Word in this instance is Jesus, because the statement Paul made about "when that which is perfect is come that which is in part will pass away" was made AFTER He already came!!

As for what has ceased, this looks like a lively discussion is about to come forth!!

Working for Hom,

Tam,

 

Tam, who's Hom, and why are you working for him?
Gina

 

When it comes to the subject of tongues - let's say that they have not ceased (not what I believe) - if practiced Scripturally - you would get rid of about 95% of their use!

Dan

 

Ok Briguy then when you get a cold do you just stay sick? Or when english speaking missionaries go out into the field to minister to people in Mexico they don't learn the language and/or get an interpreter? Hummmmm?

Please tell me what do we do with John 14:8-21?
v.12 Jesus said, He that beliveth on me, the works that I do he do also; and greater works........
If "WHO" belives on Jesus? "WHO" can do the works the He did and greater works?

Who was He talking about and what works could He be talking about?
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I'm with Jude please provide the scriptures and the practical applications that prove this.
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~micahaaron thanks for a interesting topic~

Music4Him

 

Gina---it's "working for Him"

Thats what happens when my fingers go faster than my brain.



Tam

 

I am still waiting for a biblical defense of the cessation of so called miraculous gift

p.s. (by biblical I mean using the bible inm context)


Alain

 

I agree with Jude.

In foreign countries, the lame are walking, the blind are seeing, the deaf are hearing.

 

"All the "rules" of the Law had ceased by the start of the new "church", this includes tithing."

Matthew 5:17-19 tells us that the Law has not passed away.

The ecclessia (bride) was betrothed at Mt. Sinai when and where the ketuba (bridal contract/Mosiac covenant) was given. I don't believe the "church" has the authority to do away with the Law.

If the gifts passed away did the Holy Spirit leave as well?
Cotton

 

Haven't the daily sacrifices stopped? Like Aaron and tribe of Levi used to do in the OT and mentioned in the NT after Jesus was born with the turtledoves thing?

Music4Him

 

Music4Him posted:

They are forced to learn the language, such as I was. Tongues have ceased.

The greater works are not speaking of supernatural miracles that demonstrated the deity of Christ. Christ's ministry lasted only three years. If you are young, and saved at a relatively young age (say 25 or younger) you may have at least 50 years of serving the Lord ahead of you. In that time think of how many souls you could possibly win to the Lord, how many answers to prayer that could change the lives of people, how much influence your life (if given to the Lord) could have on others. In this way Jesus said you could do greater works than He. You have much more time than He did.

Micahaaron posted:

Either because they don't study the Word of God in very much detail or thoroughly enough, or they go into it with their own pre-conceived ideas and will not change them no matter how much evidence is presented them.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
"A bishop must be the husband of one wife" So must a deacon, which is simply a servant, a standard which could be adopted by every member of the church. Polygamy is against the law. Romans 13 teaches to obey the authorities (government) that is over you.
Tithing is a controversial subject and should be left up to each individual church and pastor to decide if they want to follow that practice or not. It is a matter of soul liberty. If your church teaches tithing and you don't like it or don't agree with it, then respectfully disagree, or agree to disagree, or leave and find another church that you can agree with.
The Bible definitely teaches that a woman should not have authority over a man, that a woman cannot teach a man, how then can she be a pastor. If you are in a church that has a female pastor you are therefore in a church that is in disobedience to God's Word. Leave it.

1 Timothy 2:11-12 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

I believe that Brother Dallas is right. Charismatics use this verse as kind of threat, and take it out of its context. What is the context? Jesus had been performing many miracles. The miracles attested to his deity. In spite of the miracles that He performed they would still not believe. In fact they went so far as to say that he did his miracles by the power of Satan. They said that His works were by the power of Satan and not of God. They were eye-witnesses of the miracles of Christ, they heard him speak and saw what He did, and still rejected the conviction of the Holy Spirit. In this context Jesus said to these Jews, who both refused the evidence of his deity, and the conviction of the Holy Spirit, that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit could not be forgiven. The real sin here was attributing the works of Christ to the works of Satan. But they were in the presence of Christ when they did it. This could never happen today.

A topic never ceases. We discuss every topic in the Bible that a person brings up. Events cease. The children of Israel no longer wander in the wilderness. Moses (or anyone else) will ever speak to God through a burning bush. That is not God's way of communication. The event that happened on the Day of Pentecost was a one time event. It will never happen again. There were only three times in the Book of Acts where tongues are recorded. There is only one book outside the book of Acts where the subject of tongues is even mentioned, and that is in the context of rebuke. Events cease. The context of the passage will tell us when the event ceases.

Alain posted:

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Verse three mentions three sign gifts: prophecy, tongues, and knowledge (revelatory knowledge). It tells us that they will all cease or pass away. The question that everyone has is when? The answer is given in the following verses. I will only give it briefly here as it has been gone over many times before.
"For we know in part"—Paul says to the Corinthians that we only know in part. Remember to whom he is writing. The Corinthians only had part of the Word of God. They only had the O.T., and possibly one or two of the early books like James or Matthew. They knew only in part, for they did not have the entire New Testament. It had not been written. Therefore God gave them these revelatory gifts: prophecy, tongues (with interpretation), and revelatory knowledge, to make up for the New Testament knowledge that they did not have.

"And we prophesy in part"—Here he gives the reason why they prophesied in part, why the gift was given. It was to make up for the rest of the New Testament knowledge that they didn't have. They only knew in part, therefore the other part was made up with prophecy and tongues and revelatory knowledge.

"But when that which is perfect is come"—that which is perfect is the Word of God. The word "that" is a neuter pronoun in the Greek, not a masculine pronoun. Therefore it could not refer to Christ who is masculine. It refers to the Bible which was completed at the end of the first century with the completion of the book of Revelation, also the last book to be written chronologically. The word "perfect" also means "completed." We have the completed Word of God."
When that which is perfect or complete is come, then that which is "in part" (the sign gifts of tongues, prophecy, and revelatory knowledge shall be done away. And at the end of the first century they were. History tells us that they disappeared by that time. We have no record of them until they appeared in a another form, a form of some kind of gibberish which is not the tongues of the Bible in 1901, 1800 years after Biblical tongues ceased.

LadyEagle posted:

No one said that God doesn't answer prayer. We still serve a God that answers prayer and works on behalf of his people.

Cotton posted:

If you want to believe that I wont argue with you on tithing, since tithing was before the law. But the Law in and of itself had ceased.

The church did not do away with the law; Jesus Christ did. He nailed it to the cross.

Colossians 2:13-15 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

There was no church in the Old Testament. The church started on the Day of Pentecost. Every believer in Christ since then makes up the bride of Christ. Even John the Baptist, the last of the Old Testament prophets, called himself a friend of the bride, and not part of the bride itself. Christ did away with the law. We are not under the law; we are under grace.

That, of course, is faulty reasoning.
Every believer has the Holy Spirit. Simply because an event passes away does not mean the presence of the Holy Spirit passes away. Are you a liberal that believes God is dead?
Check out 1Cor.14:21,22. Tongues were a sign for the unbelieving Jews of the first century.
DHK

 

The initial quote I contested on the Law passing away was made by Jude.

The 'handwriting of ordinances against us' is sin and the curse of death with it - not the Law! Heaven and Earth had not passed away last time I checked-which is the verse you failed to answer.

As for being a liberal; some call me liberal and some a legalist; I don't believe God is dead any more than I believe his Torah is.

Every believer does have the Holy Spirit. Simply because some don't manifest certain gifts doesn't mean the presence of gifts passes away. Concerning 1Cor.14:21,22 ...prophecey is for believers... are believers still around? Is prophecy a gift?

Cotton

 

Are you suggesting we not tithe?

 

No, the ordinances specifically refer to the levitical laws of the Old Testament. Check the context of Col.2. There is no mention of Heaven and Earth passing away. Why are you trying to put two totally unrelated passages together?

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Colossians 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Ephesians 2:14-15 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

It is evident that Christ has abolished the law, nailed it to the cross, done away with it, fulfilled it--in order that we might have peace with him. The law brings sin and death. Through Christ alone there is peace and salvation.

Your quote, questioned the very existence of the Holy Spirit. Here it is:
If the gifts passed away did the Holy Spirit leave as well?
It is an inference that the Holy Spirit has left the world--that is, that God is dead. He no longer is with us, no longer is with any believer--does not exist. How else should one take it. It is a liberal's point of view--a denial of the existence of God.

Read 1Cor.14:21,22 again.

1 Corinthians 14:21-22 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Verse 21 is a quote from the Old Testament--In the law it is written (from Isaiah 28:11). It is written to "this people" which is the nation of Israel. Men of other tongues would speak to the nation of Israel in other tongues. Yet for all that they would not hear, Isaiah says. And this is what Paul is saying by quoting Isaiah. He is referring to the nation of Israel.

Then he goes immediately to verse 22, connecting it with "Wherefore" saying that tongues are a sign for the unbeliever. That is pretty plain language. TONGUES ARE A SIGN FOR THE UNBELIEVER Along with verse 21 we put the two in their context and see that Paul is saying that tongues are for a sign to the unbelieving Jew. If they did not receive this sign then judgement would come upon them. As it happened they did not believe the sign of tongues that authenticated the gospel message as being from God, and God sentenced them to a judgement by using Titus, a Roman general, to destroy the city of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Shortly after that tongues ceased. Tongues were a sign to the unbelieving Jew. That purpose for tongues has been fulfilled. There remains no more need for tongues. It has ceased.
DHK