What has ceased?

When some segments of Christianity says that the 'gifts of the Spirit' are ended with the closing of the canon or because we have the completed Bible, I sometimes wonder. Why? Because when some denominations can say I Corinthians 12 & 14 are no longer viable, then some Christians have the right to say that the Book of Revelation is symbolical, so we don't need to study it. Oh! that's right some already have excised the last book of the Bible, thinking that it is to difficult to study.

I have never spoken in tongues but I do respect the fact that the Apostle Paul placed these viable chapters in the Bible, and have a deep, deep respect for the Holy Spirit.

Some Christians brag that they have the seven {is it?} gifts of the Spirit of God or mark on the white sleeve/cuff of their Sunday shirt as to how many they have. I don't think this is necessary.

The Lord has blessed me with the gift of preaching and teaching but respect others who may have more gifts than I have. After all is said and done, did not God through the apostle say that the Spirit of God, ' . . . divides to every man/woman severally as He wills?' [I Cor. 12:11]

The New Century Version says about the above verse, 'One Spirit, the same Spirit, does all these things, and the Spirit decides what to give each person.'

As some think, because the Bible has arrived they are free to ignore I Corinthians 12 & 14. Well, since the Day of Pentecost is over, we should also delete this also. No, I say, there are other Christians who have gifts that we do not have at this moment in time.

Remember, I am not a Pentecostal or someone who has the 'gift of tongues,' but I do respect all of the Word of God which He has chosen to write down for our use and understanding.

Dr. Berrian

 

I do think about it. I think if MEE says is true then she should back up her words with actions, tear up those blue cross cards and all other insurance plans, go into the hospitals, walk up and down the corridors and heal all she meets. "Hey doc" isn't needed any more; just "'Hey MEE' heal me!"
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]DHK, you can make fun of the "Word of God" all you want, but it doesn't change anything.

The miracle gifts that God left for "The Church" are still in effect today. He didn't give these gifts and then take them back. They were left for us until He returns. It's just a matter of who "believes."

In Matt. 17:14-21, it talks about the man that brought his 'lunatick' son to the disciples and they couldn't heal him; even though they had power and did heal others.

So the man took his son to Jesus and He rebuked the devil from him.

The disciples couldn't understand why they couldn't heal the man's son. They questioned Jesus. He told them that it was because of their 'unbelief.'

In verse twenty-one, Jesus plainly says, "Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

Prayer and fasting is what I'm talking about when it comes to going a little deeper into the water.

If the disciples couldn't always heal, how do you expect anyone to go into a hospital, in this day and time, and heal everyone?

We hear of miracles and healings on the missionary fields all the time, as well as in our churches.

Ones that are 'believer' of the Word do get results when it come to healings. It just takes faith in God.

MEE

 

Paul placed these chapters concerning tongues in 1 Corinthians for a reason; the Corinthian’s had prostituted the gift into something that wasn’t even representative of the work of the Holy Spirit. The church at Corinth was chaotic, out of order and confused; love was a major missing factor and Paul was correcting them. The second chapter of Acts clearly defines tongues as language, not babbling incoherently, which exactly what the Corinthian’s were doing and those today in the Charismatic circles.

I’m friends with a Pentecostal who speaks in tongues; I’ve asked him how he began speaking in tongues. His Pastor basically coaxed him into it. Were Peter and the others on the day of Pentecost taught how to speak in tongues? Nope! Were Peter and the others babbling? Nope! They were speaking known languages!

Once the apostolic age had passed and the cannon of scripture was completed, there was no need or purpose of the revelatory gifts of the Holy Spirit. We now have the completed bible; we need nothing else. Once the cannon of God’s word was finished, it now contains the storehouse of knowledge (2 Tim. 3:16, 17). There’s no revelation forthcoming that will serve as an addendum to what God the Father has spoken to us by His Son (Heb. 1:1,2). Jesus makes this every clear in John 16:1-15; Jesus tells His disciples (who would later become the human writers of the NT), that it was necessary for Him to ascend to the Father, for in doing so, the Holy Spirit would descend and guide them into all truth and reveal to them things to come. Notice all truth, which is God’s truth and all of it, and the completed cannon is God’s truth, and all of it. In no way is speaking in tongues today the same as tongues in Paul's day. And in what way can the tongues today edify the church, that the Bible can't do by itself.

I guess some need a sign to believe.

 

I do think about it. I think if MEE says is true then she should back up her words with actions, tear up those blue cross cards and all other insurance plans, go into the hospitals, walk up and down the corridors and heal all she meets. "Hey doc" isn't needed any more; just "'Hey MEE' heal me!"
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]DHK, you can make fun of the "Word of God" all you want, but it doesn't change anything.

The miracle gifts that God left for "The Church" are still in effect today. He didn't give these gifts and then take them back. They were left for us until He returns. It's just a matter of who "believes."

In Matt. 17:14-21, it talks about the man that brought his 'lunatick' son to the disciples and they couldn't heal him; even though they had power and did heal others.

So the man took his son to Jesus and He rebuked the devil from him.

The disciples couldn't understand why they couldn't heal the man's son. They questioned Jesus. He told them that it was because of their 'unbelief.'

In verse twenty-one, Jesus plainly says, "Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

Prayer and fasting is what I'm talking about when it comes to going a little deeper into the water.

If the disciples couldn't always heal, how do you expect anyone to go into a hospital, in this day and time, and heal everyone?

We hear of miracles and healings on the missionary fields all the time, as well as in our churches.

Ones that are 'believer' of the Word do get results when it come to healings. It just takes faith in God.

MEE </font>[/QUOTE]I don’t believe anyone is trying to arbitrarily close the door on miracles. I believe God does intervene in supernatural ways performing miracles when and wherever He sees the need. The debate here is whether or not the Bible teaches that certain gifts were temporarily given. The evidence of God’s Word must be our final source of authority and God’s Word taken seriously and within context, all of the teachings about tongues in 1 Corinthians, does indicates that these gifts were temporarily given.

Back to my Pentecostal buddy, never has the Holy Spirit induced him to speak in tongues. It’s always been self-induced or group-induced.

 

Someone said, 'The miracle gifts that God left for "The Church" are still in effect today. He didn't give these gifts and then take them back. They were left for us until He returns. It's just a matter of who "believes."

Ray is saying, You are corrct above; some Christians will believe this an other will deny it because of pastors who prejudice the Word and have 'muddied the waters' of truth. Some Baptists err not knowing all of the Word of God. Did not Paul say in Romans 11:29,

' . . . the GIFTS and callings of God are without repentence.' This verse does not allow for the elimination of His gifts of the Spirit to the Christian Church.'

 

So, MEE:
You can point to thousands of people who have the so-called gift of tongues (an imitation of the real thing). But you can't point to a single person that has the gift of healing today--that is a person who is able to walk down the corridors of a hospital and heal all that are sick. If all the gifts of the Spirit are for today why can't the devil imitate this one as well as tongues (or sorry is this supposed to be the Holy Spirit doing it). It is because it is not the Holy Spirit doing it. There were only certain miracles that Satan could imitate when Moses stood before Pharaoh. There came a point when he could do no more. There comes a point when Satan can do no more. The gift of healings Satan cannot imitate; tongues, yes; healing, no. Do you know why tongues are so popular among believers and non-believers alike? Satan doesn't oppose it.
DHK

 

In Romans 11:29 Paul isn’t talking about spiritual gifts…tongues or prophecy…etc. Paul is using gifts in it’s more general form referring to mercy, grace…etc. See (Romans 5:15, 16; 6:23).

 

In the Book of Acts when the preachers preached people from all nations understood their message of the Gospel.

The gift of tongues in the Corinthian Church and in Pentecostal Church types is a prayer language that God give to some Christians often but not always because of their special devotion to the Lord.

Also, in churches today as well as at Corinth-in Biblical times, had the gift of tongues that was/is spoken in the congregation. If there is an 'interpretation of that tongues/message then it is of the Lord. Most often it comes in the form of encouragement to the congregation in their personal lives and/or a reminder to Christians that Christ is greater than any of our seemingly insurmountable problems. Whenever I have heard the message in tongues with interpretation it has always been very touching meeting personal needs, even mine.

While the Apostle Paul corrected some of the confusion in the Corinthian Church he did not stomp on the gift of tongues and say not to use the gift if God gives it to you.

The only way tongues would be wrong today in a church service would be if there was not interpretation of the message, or if the interpretation voiced in the congregation would be against the truth of the Bible. In all of my years, I have never heard a message of interpretation that was not in line with what the word of God states.

As far as the 'gift of healing' there are men of God who have this special gift. Even a Christian minister who has a healing gift, cannot heal every person coming to him, because it is not always God's will to heal everyone. Otherwise, we could close hospitals and funeral homes.

Some pastors are touchey about these gifts because they may only have the gift of preaching. Other peoples gifts from God are something to celebrate, within the 'Body of Christ,' rather than speaking against the ministry of the Spirit of God.

I know some denominations forbid this phenomenon; I think this is unfortunate.

 

The Bible says that certain gifts will cease, be stilled and pass away. I didn't say it, the Bible says it. That's what I "believe".

In context I believe the verse is speaking to God's gift of salvation, not the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

God gives the gifts of the Spirit to each man as it pleases "HIM". If it doesn't please Him to give men the spiritual gifts today, then that is HIS choice to make.

There is no scriptural promise that these gifts will remain until the end of times. The only promise we DO HAVE is that they will cease, be stilled and pass away..

~Lorelei

 

Then why was it necessary? When Corinthians was written these gifts were necessary because they didn't have the completed Word of God. They NEEDED further instruction and revelation on the teachings of the New Covenant.

Why do I need John Doe to give me a Word of Knowledge that basically echoes what I already Know in God's Word? The Bible is quick and Powerful and Sharper than any double edged sword. God's Word is eternal, living and will never pass away. How can anything else be more edifying than studying that? What's the point?

~Lorelei

 

I do not think that anyone of us on this board has a higher or more important profile than the Apostle Paul had in his ministry to the church and to a lost world.

Don't you find it interesting that Paul declares that he ' . . . speak with tongues more than ye all?' Paul used the gift of the Spirit more than anyone else in the church. [I Corinthians 14:18]

Each saved person has a gift. Some are 'eyes, ears, or feet' [I Cor. 12:14-25]

Can the Nazarenes, Baptists and Presbyterian types, say to the Assembly of God, the Full Gospel Churches and others are not to be factored into the Body of Christ? I did not include Roman Catholics in either category because there are charismatic Catholic Christians.

 

Ray, I love your teaching and attitude and have learned a lot from you. I appreciate you and what you bring to this board. That said, You just are wrong on this one. I feel bad saying that but I can't pretend that it is not the way I see it. The way you describe the use of tongues is wrong. They were for speaking supernaturally to someone who spoke a different language then you. The interpretation was for the believers around to be edified. It was a very supernatural miracoulous and controlled gift and was to show Iseral that God was about to judge them. Once judged, the gift faded away. Open mind study revealed this to me when I did not care one way or the other about tongues I just wanted to know the truth. Ray, I am glad you don't speak in tongues, that is a good thing. Please don't think I am taking a shot at you, as I would hate for you to dislike me. I really respect you and am not looking for an argument.

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

Lorelei,

You said, 'Then why was it necessary? When Corinthians was written these gifts were
necessary because they didn't have the completed Word of God. They
NEEDED further instruction and revelation on the teachings of the New
Covenant.'

Ray is saying, 'I would like an Assembly of God pastor to help explain your questions but I will do my best to express what he might say.

Because the Apostle Paul says to 'covet preaching' but 'forbid not to speak in tongues.' [I Corinthians 14:39-40] Why do people who have been Christians for fifty years continue to go to church? There are many reasons some of which are to be with God's people, to receive encouragement in their golden years, and to hear a fresh word from the Lord. The interpretation of tongues is always uplifting and makes you realize that the Lord is infinitely much, much greater than our little problems of life. It comes through to the hearer that it is direct from the Lord and leaves one with a spiritual high.

Why? Because some pastors are 'lukewarm' in their own spiritual experience and do their preaching in a perfunctory kind of way. Pastors, sometimes have difficulties and problems at home with their own families, so a fresh word from God might be well received by the interpretation of tongues.'

You said, 'Why do I need John Doe to give me a Word of Knowledge that basically
echoes what I already Know in God's Word? The Bible is quick and Powerful and Sharper than any double edged sword. God's Word is eternal, living and will never pass away. How can anything else be more edifying than studying that? What's the point?

Ray is saying, 'Being a pastor I always enjoyed hearing another preacher preach a good message, when I was away from my pulpit. It is nice to be fed spiritually in church, as you say, especially when you are always giving out the message from Jesus, our Lord.

If you have ever taught S.S. every Sunday, for years, it is a real privilege to hear an adult teach an adult S.S. session.'

 

Briguy/Brian,

Brian is the name of my eldest son.

I too respect you and most of your interpretation of Scripture. At least I do not find you dogmatic, meaning that you are willing to at least think. I am elated that you and I both love our Lord Jesus. That's the best!

My view is that tongues and the interpretation of tongues will cease at the time of the Rapture. [I Thess. 4:17] Why do I say that? Because in Revelation we are told about the 144,000 Jewish witnesses [Rev. 7:4-8] that will be preaching to sinners. Also, the two witness in chapter eleven will be preaching, apparently without the gift of tongues, to sinners in the holy city of Jerusalem, ' . . . where our Lord was crucified.' After Elijah and Enoch have finished their preaching during the Great Tribulation, [Matt. 24:21 & Revelation 7:14] they will be killed and God will cause them to ascend into Heaven. [vs. 12]

Yes, at some point in time, the gift of tongues will cease. If this gift were not to be used since the closing of the canon, then these happenings in Assembly of God churches would be not of God, to say it nicely. I always am respectful when I am speaking about God the Holy Spirit. I do not want to grieve Him or quench the Spirit of God in my heart/life.

In Christ, {I Thess. 4:16:d & 17---(in Christ)}
Ray

 

Matthew 13-57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.


because of their unbelief-------------hmmm

Tam,

Working for Him,

 

Is this a veiled third accusation lady? Because we believe that the sign gifts have ceased, you call us unbelievers?
What about yourself? Do you believe that the gift of healing has ceased? Can you practice it? Can walk down the corridors of a hospital and heal ALL who are sick? Why not? Not enough faith--now who is the unbeliever?
DHK

 

DHK, Please get a grip! I am not saying that you are unbelievers!

You do not believe the gifts are for today. That does not mean that you don't believe in Jesus, the Holy Ghost and a lot of other things.

What I'm saying is: if you don't believe in the gifts, then they will not work for you!

The rest of the gospel that you do believe in will work for you.

You have made a lot of valid points on a lot of other subjects. We just don't happen to agree on this one.

God Bless you!!

Tam,

 

You did insuate that we did not believe, did not have the unction, did not have the Holy Spirit, etc.
However, you still have not demonstrated your belief in the gifts of the Holy Spirit by demonstrating that the gift of healing is in operation today. I have challenged you to demonstrate this by showing me to go through the corridors of any hospital and heal all those that are sick and disabled. Why can't you or any of your friends do this? Is it because of unbelief? Or is it because the gifts of the Spirit have ceased? You tell me.
DHK

 

He said this after spending three chapters explaining the proper use and purpose of this gift and explaining to the Corinthians that there would come a time that they would cease.

In the post above you said that interpretation always was in line with the Word of God and now you say that we should go to church to get a "fresh" word from the Lord. I believe that the Lord has revealed all that we need to know in His Word. Do you agree or disagree?

Where does scripture support this claim? The Bible never says that the gifts gave the users a "spiritual high." This is all speculation and has no scriptural basis to prove it. It is a belief based upon "feeling" and "emotionalism" and not one verse in scripture tells us that we should allow the practice of gifts in order for us to "feel good." The words "edify" and "uplift" have nothing to do with a spritual "high" or emotional feeling. It means to "build up." We are to be built on the foundation of Christ through the teaching of His Word, not some experiential "high" that simply makes one "feel good."

Again, I see nothing in scripture that say the gifts were given to give "fresh words" to "lukewarm" pastors having problems at home. This position is again based upon how the gift makes you "feel" not what it does.

Yes, but this is what we are instructed to do and it is indeed uplifting to hear the Word preached. This did not answer my question. Why do you need someone to stand up and speak in a language no one understands and then have someone else interpret that Word for us to find out that what they said was already in the Word of God? Seems sort of silly and a waste of time to me. Now that we have the knowledge given to us in the scriptures we don't need any new "revelation." It was different back then. The gifts were necessary and were useful, for instruction and knowledge, not for simply "feeling good."

For those who keep insinuating we don't "believe" enough, let me remind you it is an adulterous generation that seeks after a sign. I am in no need of a "sign" or a "spiritual high" to prove to me that my God is real. I have his witness within me and His Spirit testifies with my spirit that I am a child of God! Amen!

~Lorelei