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Assumption
- Thread starter Joseph_Botwinick
- Start date
But the Catholic Church knows about a bunch of people who are in heaven.
I suspect that the Church is given no information about people in hell because we would be inclined to think "Gee, I'm not as bad as that person, so I must be OK!"
How could the Catholic Church make claims about Anyone being in
heaven when their stance is....
Being saved
Will be saved.
No claim is made by them as to assurance of salvation.
It's a waiting game in their eyes to see if they might still miss a mass
or something, commit an unrepented sin before death or fail to stay
in the Catholic Church.
heaven when their stance is....
Being saved
Will be saved.
No claim is made by them as to assurance of salvation.
It's a waiting game in their eyes to see if they might still miss a mass
or something, commit an unrepented sin before death or fail to stay
in the Catholic Church.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Ken,
I'm an ordained clergy and I will help you finish your post on page 9 the fifth post from the bottom of the page.
Try to start a new Protestant church deep in South America and you will see how ecumenical the rest of the clergy are in your new community. I have heard the true stories . . . We are protected by laws in the good old USA.
I'm an ordained clergy and I will help you finish your post on page 9 the fifth post from the bottom of the page.
Try to start a new Protestant church deep in South America and you will see how ecumenical the rest of the clergy are in your new community. I have heard the true stories . . . We are protected by laws in the good old USA.
Jesus did tell us who would be in Hell. He gave us quite a bit of information on the subject:
Matthew 11:
20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
The day of judgement referred to here is the Great White Throne judgement referenced in Rev.20:11-15, where no born again believer will be present. These verses demonstrate that there will be degrees of punishment in eternity. It will be more tolerable for the unbelievers in the wicked land of Sodom filled with all those homosexuals than it will be for those in the town of Capernaum, who, having seen Christ, would not believe on Him.
Matthew 7:
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Jesus speaks of false prophets here. You shall know them by their fruits. They shall be hewn down and cast into the fire. Jesus said that he will tell them, “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” This also refers to the Great White Throne Judgement.
False teachers, their followers, the unbelievers; we have a good knowledge of who will be in Hell.
Wheher they be Catholic inquisitors or Hitler's butchers, the result was the same. In one case it was the slaughter of the Jews; in the other it was a slaughter of Bible-believing people.
Jesus said concerning the self-righteous Pharisees:
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Then he said to Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
DHK
DHK:
We don't know if the person repented. We don't know the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
" For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." Hebrews 4:12
God Bless
We don't know if the person repented. We don't know the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
" For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." Hebrews 4:12
God Bless
Are we talking about the Word of God--the principles, guidelines, and rules that it lays down for us; or, are we talking of the "exceptions" to the rule?
The Lord outright condemned entire cities, and you condemn His judgement because you say they may have repented at the last minute??
Do you know better than God?
DHK
(Kathryn)
We don't know if the person repented. We don't know the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
That's right, and your "Church" also does not know this.
The repentance, thoughts and intentions of a Protestant or an unchurched person
is just as good as that of a Catholic.
Or.......are prayers said in a Catholic Church superior to those in other churches?
We don't know if the person repented. We don't know the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
That's right, and your "Church" also does not know this.
The repentance, thoughts and intentions of a Protestant or an unchurched person
is just as good as that of a Catholic.
Or.......are prayers said in a Catholic Church superior to those in other churches?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Excellent point - that is exactly the reasoning the RCC used to slaughter millions of Christians during the dark ages. (About 50 million as it turns out). The idea is that if the RCC could torture its victims into recanting then a few days of torment is exchanged for an eternity of torture by the less-than-kind god of the RCC. So in fact the RCC was doing them a favor AND was still "kind" by comparison to the fate they were saving the tortured victim from.
And so Pope "Innocent" (not!) goes down in infamy as history's prime RC champion of the "inquisition". What an honor for the pope to hold during the notorious era of the RCC dark ages. But at least he did not torture his cardinals and toss them over the sides of his papal warship as did other popes.
And as EWTN points out - Billy Graham himself would get "tortured to death under them rules"
Excellent CC - you made the point - you must be a student of history.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Shall we "read from the RC sources" about "the efforts to EXTERMINATE" certain groups now?
Would you like to start the reading - or shall I?
It just wouldn't do to "pretend" that all this evidence comes only from non-RC sources.
So that brings up the question - with so much pride in torture - and all the good it does - what exactly DID the RCC appologize for recently?
As it turns out -- not one single thing!! (And this too - according to EWTN).
In Christ,
Bob
Would you like to start the reading - or shall I?
It just wouldn't do to "pretend" that all this evidence comes only from non-RC sources.
So that brings up the question - with so much pride in torture - and all the good it does - what exactly DID the RCC appologize for recently?
As it turns out -- not one single thing!! (And this too - according to EWTN).
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The RCC is like a massive ship on the ocean - leaking heavily from all sides while faithful diligently row for shore.
While one is claiming "we did nothing amiss" - their own RC historians are admitting to slaughter and extermination, AND providing the logic to defend it as "ok".
While one group is claiming "EVEN if we went totally hay wire - it was not with over 2 or 3 people being tortured" the Historians are claiming "We Totally OWNED all of Europe to a larger degree and more comprehensive extent than EVEN the pagan Roman empire".
While one side is claiming "we hold to unbroken lines of pure light" - the other is arguing "We compromised with paganism at the fall of the Roman empire and started persecuting Christians immediately - using Force to compell Christians that differed with us".
Fascinating.
In Christ,
Bob
While one is claiming "we did nothing amiss" - their own RC historians are admitting to slaughter and extermination, AND providing the logic to defend it as "ok".
While one group is claiming "EVEN if we went totally hay wire - it was not with over 2 or 3 people being tortured" the Historians are claiming "We Totally OWNED all of Europe to a larger degree and more comprehensive extent than EVEN the pagan Roman empire".
While one side is claiming "we hold to unbroken lines of pure light" - the other is arguing "We compromised with paganism at the fall of the Roman empire and started persecuting Christians immediately - using Force to compell Christians that differed with us".
Fascinating.
In Christ,
Bob
Ray Berrian
New Member
Non-Catholics and Protestants honor the Son who provided redemption, cleansing and forgiveness for Mary and the rest of us human sinners who have faith in Jesus.
The alleged Magisterium of the pope gives a huge gavel with which to bring more spin in the theological arena.
If the Assumption of Mary into Heaven were in fact true, the Lord would have had one of His apostles write it down for all of us on a manuscript. If the Assumption were an important aspect for our understanding He would not have waited until the 1950's to make it an official doctrine of the Christian Church.
We wisely choose not to believe the philosophies of men. 'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy . . . . after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.' [Colossians 2:8]
All estraneous doctrine not found in Scripture is to be avoided. [II Corinthians 11:13-15]
If you cannot find the Assumption of Mary between Genesis and Revelation then it should not be included as part of Christian doctrine. The Apostle Paul said to the Galatian Christians, 'But though we,or even an angel from Heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed.' [Galatians 1:8]
Paul and his message was received as truth, but any add on gospel is to be turned aside, because it is spurious and not helpful spiritually speaking. The Apostle Paul's message was received as coming from Christ alone. [Galatians 4:14]
The alleged Magisterium of the pope gives a huge gavel with which to bring more spin in the theological arena.
If the Assumption of Mary into Heaven were in fact true, the Lord would have had one of His apostles write it down for all of us on a manuscript. If the Assumption were an important aspect for our understanding He would not have waited until the 1950's to make it an official doctrine of the Christian Church.
We wisely choose not to believe the philosophies of men. 'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy . . . . after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.' [Colossians 2:8]
All estraneous doctrine not found in Scripture is to be avoided. [II Corinthians 11:13-15]
If you cannot find the Assumption of Mary between Genesis and Revelation then it should not be included as part of Christian doctrine. The Apostle Paul said to the Galatian Christians, 'But though we,or even an angel from Heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed.' [Galatians 1:8]
Paul and his message was received as truth, but any add on gospel is to be turned aside, because it is spurious and not helpful spiritually speaking. The Apostle Paul's message was received as coming from Christ alone. [Galatians 4:14]