Offense

Yes, I do seem to remember that Christ said His Church would have no sinners. Thanks for reminding me!

BTW, it's Cardinal Newman. Have a look yourself, if you're brave... An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine

 

Mike S,

You are correct again.

Mike said, 'Yes, I do seem to remember that Christ said His Church would have no
sinners. Thanks for reminding me!'

When you receive Christ [John 1:12] He considers you a saint. [I Corinthians 1:2 & I John 3:9 & I John 3:2] Jesus does not save a soul so they can maintain a wicked heart/life.

 

But, because we do sin, John tells us in 1 John 1:9 that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

Since you gave this as a response to Mike's sarcastic statement, are you maintaining that Christians are no longer sinners? Are they perfect? Do they no longer commit sins? You seem to give that impression since this was your response to Mike.

In Christ,
Neal

 

neal4christ,

I agree with Yelsew. I John 1:10 says that we occasionally sin, but we do not make a practice of sinning. [I John 3:9] Check out the Greek word for commit.

 

Okay. So how is your understanding different from Mike's? Is the Pope not allowed to sin occasionally? And for those committed to sin, are there not many, many non-Catholics in the same boat, who get up in front of their churches week after week? What about those who spread lies, even when they have been confronted with the truth of the matter, habitually? There are many here who do that against the Catholic Church, so are they not Christians?

In Christ,
Neal

 

Neal4Christ,
Sin has nothing to do with whether or not one is Christian.

Do Christians Sin? Yes, but Christians who confess their sins have an advocate before the throne of God to speak in their behalf. Unbelievers do not have such an advocate because they don't believe in Him. Christians also have the ability, God given, to repent from sinning, because they are no longer bound to sin.

The only thing that makes a person a Christian is one's FAITH in Jesus Christ! There is no other way to be Christian. One might act in a Christian manner, but unless that one has FAITH in the Christ, he/she is not Christian.

 

Yelsew,

You are preaching to the choir, my friend. I am asking Ray these things, not because I don't have a clue, but because he has made some interesting comments. I just want to understand where he is coming from and why he seems to have a double standard. I want to know why Catholics can't have people in leadership who sin, yet non-Catholics can. He is using accusations that just as easily apply to non-Catholics.

In Christ,
Neal

 

Since you gave this as a response to Mike's sarcastic statement, are you maintaining that Christians are no longer sinners? Are they perfect? Do they no longer commit sins? You seem to give that impression since this was your response to Mike.

In Christ,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]I would also add, without any sarcasm, that being in the Church (ref. my comment) is not identical to being saved. There will quite possibly be popes in hell, but (a) they still held the authority given by Christ to Peter, and (b) they taught no doctrinal error in that position of authority.

 

I understand what you are saying, Mike. Ray does not, or doesn't want to acknowledge it. Also, I wasn't intending "sarcastic statement" to be judgmental or anything like that; I was just calling it what it was. Hope you didn't take it the wrong way. Besides, I like sarcasm!

In Christ,
Neal

 

I understand what you are saying, Mike. Ray does not, or doesn't want to acknowledge it. Also, I wasn't intending "sarcastic statement" to be judgmental or anything like that; I was just calling it what it was. Hope you didn't take it the wrong way. Besides, I like sarcasm!

In Christ,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]I understand, Neal. I was just emphasizing that I was being serious this time (sometimes that's hard for me with the stuff I read here!)

Absolutely no offense taken!

 

Good point. Notice the number of times that Catholic sources are quoted - and then Catholic members post "how vile of you to quote that Catholic source" if the source is revealing some "unpleasant" truth about RCC attributes as demonstrated in history.

But the "point" is not merely to show that "some bad things were done by the RCC" rather it is to show the truth of the Bible in predicting those actions and it is to show the significance of the doctrinal errors that they have taught.

The arguments some of them have made here on why they get to continue to demonize the poor victims of the RCC that were tortured and burned - are an example of the "significance" of some of the doctrinal errors played out before our eyes.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Ray,

I would appreciate your response if you have time so that I may understand you thinking on this.

Thank-you!

In Christ,
Neal

 

Someone said, 'Many Catholics say that "to know history is to cease to be
Protestant". Unfortunately, torture and burning at the
stake are a part of that history. You can't simply choose the
parts of history that paint the Catholic Church in a positive
light. I don't mean to be unkind, but you simply cannot have
it both ways.'

Yes, the multiple thousands of deaths of non-Catholics was prophecied by Almighty God via the pen of the Apostle John. Don't be shocked. The woman in Revelation 17 is not drunk with wine, but ' . . . with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.' {vs.6}

What was John's answer to the problem? 'Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins . . . ' [Rev. 18:4] From what John wrote we can see that God's people are also in the Roman Catholic Church.

 

Here is a little Quaker history from a Quaker website and supported by Christian history books, such as Eerdman’s Handbook to the History of Christianity.

http://www.qis.net/~daruma/naylor2.html

 

thessalonian,

You said, 'Protestants haven't killed anybody? Check out the council of Geneva Ray.
John Calvin just happened to be an attendee who wanted a guy named
Servetus executed.

Ray is saying, 'I am not a Calvinist and what Calvin did was wrong and if I John 3:15 is the truth-John might not have entered Heaven.

You said, ' How about England where your King James Bible comes from. KKK ring a bell. It was generally a Protestant organization.

Ray is saying, 'Nice try at a smear campaign. The KJV Bible has nothing to do with the racial prejudice of the KKK.

You said, 'Did you know that Martin Luther's word's inspired Protestant governments to kill 100,000 peasants?

Ray is saying, 'Guess which church was the mentor to John Calvin and Martin Luther? Who and where were they ordained into the ministry?

You said, 'As for the Church killing these people. There is another incident where 19 nuns got killed by some calvinists.

Ray is saying, 'Calvinism is a system of theology; no one said that all Calvinists were Christian.

You said, 'Perhaps you could check in to history because at one time heresy
was considered by both Protestants and Catholics to be a serious offense,
akin to murder if not worse for to kill a man's soul was considered a greater
crime than killing his body. Thus Capital punishment was used on those who
taught heresy.

Ray is saying, 'I know that is true but that is no excuse for any person to kill another human being created after 'the image of God.' Even a person without Christ/Holy Spirit has a conscience and knows that murder is a grave, grave sin. The archbishops in each presiding area probably dangled the soul of the civil servants over Hell, so rather than losing their soul they obeyed the Church. The authorities higher than the parish priest pushed the idea of exterminating people and destroying any non-Catholic beliefs.

Thessalonian said, 'How do you feel about Romans 13 Ray?'

I believe in obeying the laws of the land, including the Federal government as well as the state government. I believe in Capital Punishment.

You said, 'It makes us a bit
squimish today but in those days even theft and lesser crimes in some
places commanded a death sentence. Further the numbers are way over
blown to the point of being outright lies. And just how do you come to the
conclusion that the Church killed all of these people. In truth they generally
turned people over to cival authorities and in some cases harsh laws of the
state were applied.

Ray is saying, 'And who made the laws in these nations. Catholics. And I think they were pressured by the Church to write the laws for the Church and state.

You said, 'Sometimes by Catholic officials but also by Protestant officials. Perhaps you need to study history a bit more.'

Ray is saying, 'I went through all of Church history on books about the History of Christianity. I agree with you that it is time to refresh one's mind.

I think this was the conclusion of your post.

Blessings to you and yours.

Ray

 

Ray,

I could be misreading here, but I think the "England" thing and the "KKK" thing were two separate points.

Mark

 

Mark H,

I believe you are right.

Ray