Preterism v. God's Plan for our future

Hya Ed, thanks for chiming in. I have been reading your material for a couple days before I posted. You have been very clear about your difficulties with the preterist view. I appreciate that, it makes them much easier to address.

I'm glad to see you agree that AD66-70 was a Biblical "Day of the Lord", my question to you would then be, where in scripture do you find this particular "day of the Lord" prophesied?

According to Scripture, they obviously took place "shortly" after John was given the vision for the time was then "at hand". (Rev 1:1-3)

Remarkably similar to the language used to describe the OT Judgement's of Edom and Nineveh:

Isaiah 34:3-5 (NKJV) Also their slain shall be thrown out; Their stench shall rise from their corpses, And the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree. 5 "For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment.

Nahum 1 (NKJV) The burden against Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite. 2 God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies; 3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked. The LORD has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet. 4 He rebukes the sea and makes it dry, And dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither, And the flower of Lebanon wilts. 5 The mountains quake before Him, The hills melt, And the earth heaves at His presence, Yes, the world and all who dwell in it.


Ed, this is common prophetic Biblical language to describe the fall of a nation. It does not take on a polar opposite meaning in the NT.

What else ya got?

 

God is timeLESS.
God dosen't have "Near", or "Far", He dosen't have to wait "Soon" or "long" for anything.

Clearly, These terms are meant to be understood by how time relates to man, not God.

Actually, Peter is quoting the Psalmist in 2 Peter 3:8:

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it is past, And like a watch in the night. .

Ed, do you by chance now how long a Jewish "Watch in the night" is?

According to my research, a Jewish "watch in the Night" in Biblical times would have ranged anywhere from 3 to 6 earth hours, which throws a wrench into your claim that 1000 earth years = exactly 24 God hours, for the psalmist claims that not only is 1000 years a day to God, it is also 3 to 6 hours to God. Whichever He wants it to be, indeed, Peter also points out that one earth day is like 1000 years to God if He so choses to view it as such.

The overall message is clear.
God is TIMELESS. He is not bound by some "equivalant mutiple" to earth time as you are teaching.

 

Not "Repeated", but completed in scope; as the unregenerate world is a vestige of the covenant of death as well, and will thus suffer God's vengeance ofr its sins as well.

 

Not sure I follow....

Could you elaborate?

 

OK, explain what it is about the following I missed?:

" According to 2 Peter 3:8 we are going on toward the end of the SECOND DAY since Jesus left. "

Second day? what does that mean?

And Again I refer you back to this:

" According to 2 Peter 3:8 we are going on toward the end of the SECOND DAY since Jesus left. "

You realy mean Physical/Literal 2nd Day?

To which I point again to:

" According to 2 Peter 3:8 we are going on toward the end of the SECOND DAY since Jesus left. "

If you are not applying a physical/Literal interpratation to this "2nd day" statement of yours, what else could your interpratation be besides spiritual/mistic?

Yep.
You are not the literalist you think you are, as I have just demonstrated.

Unless you accept your own "allegorical culpability", therefore dismissing outright your stated argument against allegory, our salad won't get tossed.

All interpratations mix the temporal with the alegorical. Yours is no different.

Uh,....By Saying the Events of 66-70AD will be "Completed" in scope some time in our future, you are arguing that the Sacking of Jerusalem marked the beginning of the Great Tribulation of Matt 24.

You do realize that don't you?

Oh ed, BTW, I'm looking forward to your point by point rebuttal of my post , number 81 in this thread.

[ January 18, 2005, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: Lastdazed ]

 

What Have I "taken out" on you?
Exposing your own allegorical bias?
Am I wrong in claiming you are employing a spiritual/mistic interpratation of 2 Peter 3:8 when you said this:

" According to 2 Peter 3:8 we are going on toward the end of the SECOND DAY since Jesus left. "

Or do you mean Literal/physical 2nd day?

What say you?

Now, I'll effort my best response to your overall question, but as it stands, you have ignored my responses thusfar so I don't have high hopes of you addressing my response this time.

Sure would be nice if you'd do me the honor of providing a point by point rebuttal of my posts thusfar, or at least admit you can't. (your silence implies the latter)

It's laid out by the terms of the Covenant.

Either one is in Christ, saved inspite of ones sins, or one is "in Adam" already condemned regardless of ones sins (or lack thereof).

Now, Preterists do not know future events, but we are fully confident in the fact that whatever the conquering Savior pleases to do, He does, on earth as in heaven (Ps. 135:6). And when we consider the divine eternality of the Church on earth and her progressive divine dominion, we know that her future, and hence the future of humanity, will be filled to overflowing with innumerable blessings which are even now utterly impossible for us to grasp. For what wonders will God work in and through His more-than-conquering Church after 10,000 years of ecclesiastical progress, or after 1,000,000 years of victory? Only God can know (Eccl. 3:11). What we do know is that in Christ Jesus our Creator and our Redeemer, the future of mankind on earth under His dominion will surely be "exceeding abundantly" and incomprehensibly wonderful....

"Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, unto him be glory in the Church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Eph. 3:20-21).

Scripture please.

Gentile age?
What scripture teaches that?

Last Gentile?
Where is that taught?

I haven't said word one about what "generation" means. Why don't you stick to what I have said.

I'm not concerned with websters definition, or the ITT Technical institutes definition, I'm concerned with Jesus' usage of the term.

Perhaps you could show me where Jesus uses genea to mean "to create stuff", or anything for that matter, other than His 1st century contemporaries.

That's what I've been trying to do, but it has fallen on deaf ears so far, lets continue anyway........

" According to 2 Peter 3:8 we are going on toward the end of the SECOND DAY since Jesus left. "

Ed, what do you mean by DAY here?

Literal/Physical Day, or Spiritual/Mystic Day?

Seems like a simple question to me.

[ January 19, 2005, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Lastdazed ]

 

Jesus Christ was the first to rise out of the dead. Jesus was, literally, the "first resurrection." This fact, well attested by the writings of the New Testament, forms the basis for understanding Revelation 20:5-6:

"This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power" (Revelation 20:5-6)

The first resurrection was Jesus Christ:

Revelation 1:5
Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead
Acts 26:23
Christ should suffer and...be the first that should rise from the dead

Colossians 1:18
He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead

1 Corinthians 15:20
Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits of those sleeping he became

Jesus Christ was, plainly, the first resurrection. This fact forms the basis of St. John's depiction of the tribulation martyr saints becoming full partakers of the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20--everything Christ received by his death and resurrection is granted to them. Revelation 20:4-6, therefore, depicts the reality of Pauline theology concerning the identity Christ's followers had "in Him." Paul had taught that the saints were to become partakers of Christ's own reign and victory over death. Paul, with his detailed theology of our baptism into the very death and resurrection of Jesus (Rom 6:3-14), taught that the saints had co-resurrection and co-enthronement in the realized resurrection and enthronement of Jesus Christ:

The saints have co-resurrection in Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 1:20 (Christ's resurrection)
He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places
Ephesians 2:5-6 (the saints' co-resurrection in Christ)
[God] made us alive together with Christ...and raised us up with Him

Colossians 2:12 (the saints' co-resurrection in Christ)
ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead

Colossians 3:1 (the saints' co-resurrection in Christ)
If ye, then, be risen with Christ, seek those things that are above

The saints have co-enthronement in Jesus Christ

Ephesians 1:20-22 (Christ's enthronement)
He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet
Ephesians 2:6 (the saints' co-enthronement in Jesus Christ)
God...raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

Colossians 3:1 (the saints' co-enthronement in Jesus Christ)
Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

The suffering, overcomer saints reign with Him

Revelation 3:21 (cf. 2:26-27)
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne
2 Timothy 2:11-12
If we be dead with him, we shall live with him; if we suffer, we shall also reign with him

Philippians 3:8-12
I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him...that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death in order that I may attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that

The tribulation saints of Revelation 6:9-11, after being told to rest for a short time that the rest of the shed blood of the appointed martyrs might fill up the fullness of God's wrath (Matt 23:34-36; Rev 18:20,24; 19:2; 16:4-6,19; 17:6; 18:5-6; 1 Thess 2:14-16), were granted the realization of their co-inheritance with Christ--this realization of their hope is depicted in Revelation 20:4-6. St. John shows us the tribulation saints co-raised and co-enthroned with Jesus, realizing the full hope of St. Paul's teaching on the saints' reign and resurrection in the reign and resurrection of Jesus.

In sum, Revelation 20:4-6 is a narrative depiction of the saints' realization of the glorious promise Paul held out for them in his teachings--the saints are depicted as having attained the goal for which they all strove. As Paul taught, their resurrection and reign was "in Christ," and their sufferings and martyrdoms were honored by God with the reward of partaking in Christ's own resurrection, enthronement, and reign. They realized the promise of Paul's teaching that the saints were truly to take part in the first resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Truly, on these the second death has no power (Rev 20:6).

 

Ed will sometimes vanish when certain questions are asked. I've been waiting for some time on an answer to the New Heavens and New Earth of Is 65 and 66. I would say he is "sick" or "out of town" but I see he has been very active on other threads.

If I don't know an answer to a question, I just say, "I don't know".

 

It was the beginning of the great Tribulation for Israel only. But the world's great tribulation (the completion of the "Scope") would occur in the future. It is parallel, not continuous.

This was taken from www.strato.net/~dagreen/questionsandanswers2.html#note13 I have responded to many of those Q&A's on my site (and still have to e-mail my rebuttals to him sometime), and here is my answer to this one:

This completely forgets about the Dark Ages, when "the Church" at large was full of darkness, and only small insignificant groups carried the torch of the faith. So yes, "the gates of Hell did not prevail", and God is ultimately in control of everything, but if He allowed that then, then how can we assume that eventually, there will may be some golden age where the Church gives the world these "blessings" that seem to be described in the same fashion as what's in store in Heaven? It is only with a preconception of preterism. It looks like it's getting worse right now, with increasing watering down of the faith, compromise and ecumenicism on one hand, and then increasing schism and reactive legalism in opposition, on the other hand. This seems to fit perfectly with dual fulfillment of a new Babylon or antitypical "Jerusalem" becoming a harlot to be judged by the return of Christ, along with all the other "last days" scriptures.
And "on earth as in Heaven" suggests that eventually, God will fully redeem the earth and make it like it is in Heaven!

Eph 3:21 says "unto him be the glory in the church by Christ Jesus unto all generations for ever and ever" or "world without end". That does not say the Church (as a body of believers in a fallen world) shall exist "forever". It says, literally, "generations of all ages". That's the Church for all generations, not necessarily all eternity. And it is the "to Him ["God" or the Father, in the preceding verse] be glory" that is forever, in the Church [now], and by Christ Jesus.

Nice try, but notice in the passage describing this "first resurrection" what he sees:
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus ... and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it ; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in : and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Here, we see two definite groups of people who were dead and then came back to life. A "first" resurrection and a "second" resurrection. One leads to eternal reign with Christ, and the other, to a "second" death!
Christ was the firstfruits of the first resurrection, which does not give us the license to say that this is the only "resurrection", and we share it only by some sort of spiritual imputation. We do partake of Christ's own resurrection in that way, but this does not negate our own literal part in this first resurrection, but is rather the downpayment of it! (2 Cor.1:22, 5:5, Eph.1:14. 2 Tim.1:14).
This interpretation goes along with the usual preterist assumption that "resurrection" = "spiritual life". But the unregerate are clearly "raised" also, but that does not equal "spiritual life". They remain spiritually dead!

 

Ed, you have the New H&E of Is. 65:17 referring to both the Physical Millinnial Kingdom and the Eternal Kingdom. Is this correct or did you mis-type?

 

So you have the heaven and earth being physically destroyed at the beginning of the Millinnium and the heavens and earth physically being destroyed at the end of the 1000 years, correct?

 

It was the beginning of the great Tribulation for Israel only. But the world's great tribulation (the completion of the "Scope") would occur in the future. It is parallel, not continuous. </font>[/QUOTE]Scripture please.
Your Great trib gap theory sure is fancy, but it can't be found anywhere in scripture.

And that made them insignificant how exactly?

I'd say they were the only significant ones around.

How can we assume that?
It's the unbroken history of the Church on earth. Progressive divine dominion is hers and hers alone.

The indesputable fact is that there are more Christians on earth today than there were yesterday, and there will be more Christians on earth tomorrow than there are today.
Our mission is to subdue kingdoms and establish righeousness and we cannot fail. (Heb 11:33, Matt 16:18)

It "looks like" it's getting worse?
That sounds convincing.

Can you prove it?

Give me an example of a time in our past when and how the Church was "Better off" than it is today and explain your findings in a way that they can be cross checked by our readers.

Was it better off Last year?
10 years ago?
50 years ago?
100?
500?
1000?
2000?

Should be a piece of cake, eh?

Please show this concept of dual fulfillment from scripture.

I contend it dosen't exist, and is only manifest through the need to reconcile scripture with a previously held futurist bias.

Should we be expecting another virgin birth?
another crusifixion?

Where does "double fulfillment" start and stop?
how does the Christian discern which prophesies have dual fulfillment, and what abot triple fulfillment? what's to stop that??

Was the cross merely a "shadow" of some future greater sacrifice for sin?

As I pointed out, Jesus Christ is LITERALLY the FIRST RESURRECTION.

There was none before Him, He was LITERALLY the FIRST.

You apparantly do not hold a literal interpratation of the First resurrection.

Unbiased minds can see that my previous comment on it answers all objections you have raised.