"Soul Sleep?"Part 1

The following verses indicate that the dead have no thoughts, they are in a state similar to sleep.

Eccl 9:5-6 "5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."
Eccl 9:10 "10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

Ps 115:17 "17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence."

Surely if the dead were conscious, and in heaven they would be praising God.

Ps 146:3-4 "3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."

1Thes 4:13-17 "13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The point of the above verses is that without the resurrection there is no hope for those who have fallen asleep, or died in Christ. They will receive their reward of eternal life, when the Lord returns, as the next verse indicates.

John 6:39-40 "39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

1 Cor 15:51-54 "51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

Those who are in Christ will receive immortality at His second coming, at the last trump, not at their death.

Luke 8:52-55 52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but
sleepeth.
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

John 11:11-14 11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus
sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.(KJV)
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Jesus referred to the dead as sleeping, because the dead are referred to as sleeping all through the scriptures.

Ps 13:3 3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

IKing 2:10-11 10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.
11 And the days that David reigned over Israel were forty years: seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.

IKing 11:43 43 And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

IKing 14:20 20 And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his stead.

IKing 14:31 31 And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess. And Abijam his son reigned in his stead.

IKing 15:8 8 And Abijam slept with his fathers; and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in his stead.

2 Chr 21:1 1 Now Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And Jehoram his son reigned in his stead.

2 Chr 26:23 23 So Uzziah slept with his fathers, and they buried him with his fathers in the field of the burial which belonged to the kings; for they said, He is a leper: and Jotham his son reigned in his stead.

Job 7:21 21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Job 14:10-12 10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Dan 12:2 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matt 27:52-53 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Acts 7:59-60 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

2 Pet 3:4 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Acts 2:29-36 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

If the dead go straight to heaven or hell at death, then why hadn't David ascended to heaven yet at the time of Christ?

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Kieth

 

This is your first error. SDAs sometimes reference the Soul as the BEING or the PERSON - that is true. And scripture often does the same.

However it is not true that the SDA position is arguing that the PERSON does not HAVE a spirit.

The SDA argument is that the PERSON is mortal - that man - the PERSON - is mortal.

The SDA argument is that the spirit of ALL mankind goes BACK to God at death.

The SDA argument is also that there is no activity, planning, worship, relationship with God etc in the death of the PERSON and that the PERSON (if saved) is rightly called "The DEAD in Christ" and is rightly said to be asleep (as we see stated in 1Thess 4).

This post is simply to "correct your representation of the SDA teaching".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Eccl 12:7 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

You are right about the spirit going back to God who gave it. However, you do not correctly understand what the word spirit, in this verse is referring to. If you will look in your Strongs Concordance, you will find that the primary definition of the word spirit in this verse is wind, or breath. It is this breath, that is returned to God at death. This is the very breath of life that was breathed into Adam in the Garden of Eden at creation. Adam was formed of the dust, and then God breathed the breath of life into him. It is only when the body is united with this breath, or spirit, that one becomes a living conscious soul. When the body, and the spirit, or breath, are separated, man is no longer a living soul.

Gen 2:7 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The book of Ecclesiastes points out more clearly than any other book in the bible perhaps, what state one is in after death. Do you really think that the writer would point out what he does about the dead in chapter nine, and then in chapter twelve say what he says about the spirit returning to God, with the intention of leading people to think that the dead are conscious, and alive and well in heaven?

Eccl 9:5-6 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Eccl 9:10 10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

I do not believe that the scriptures contradict themselves like that. Do you?

You also mentioned that Moses was in heaven as proof of your belief. The scriptures point out that Michael, whom I believe to be Christ, came to earth to get the body of Moses. A reference to the fact, I believe, that Moses was resurrected and brought to heaven. An event, that apparently, the Devil was not very fond of.

Jude 1:9 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

I know that Enoch, Elijah, and Moses are in heaven. There are also those who were resurrected when the Lord Jesus died on the cross. These people I am sure also are in heaven. These are representatives of the two classes that will exist when Christ returns to gather His own together, that they might ever be with Him. Those who like Enoch, and Elijah, will not see death, but are alive when the Lord returns, and those who will be resurrected to see the Lord coming in the clouds. This is the blessed hope which I await eagerly.

Matt 27:50-53 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

1Thes 4:13-18 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

PRAISE THE LORD!

Bye for now. Your brother in Christ, Keith

 

1 Chr 10:13-14 13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it;
14 And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

It is obvious from the scriptures above, that when Saul consulted with a familiar spirit, that spirit was not Samuel. Samuel was a prophet of God. If he could have been summoned from the grave, his council would have been God's council. The scriptures above however, point out that seeking the council of this familiar spirit, was not seeking the council of God. It was for this reason also, that he lost the kingdom when he did.

I'm sure the devil wanted nothing more than for Saul to lose his life while unrepented of sins he had committed. For this reason, the demonic message from a fake Samuel was void of any call to repentance, and predicted Saul's sure doom. Saul did not only seek a familiar spirit, but he also believed the familiar spirit, and acted accordingly. This no doubt sealed his doom.

This is a very successful method of the Devil. He tempts us into sin, and leads us to believe that it is to late for us to repent and turn back. Of course, if one believes that it is to late for them, then it is so. They are not capable of faith in God to the contrary. Let us prey that we never believe the Devils lies in this regard. Bye for now. Your brother in Christ, Keith.

 

II Corinthians 5:6, "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

To use this verse to support the thought that at death, one goes to be with the Lord, requires the assumption, that death is what is being discussed here by Paul. There is no reference to death, or dying in these verses. These verses however, do resemble others that have been written by the Apostle Paul concerning the spiritual life, as compared to the carnal life.

Rom 8:5-11 "5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

Those who live in the flesh, that is for the flesh, are carnal, and cannot please God. Paul however, points out that we are not of the flesh, but of the spirit, that is if the spirit of God dwells within you. Those who are of the flesh, are at home in the flesh, or body. They live to please the flesh, or this earthly home of ours, the body. On the other hand, Christians are not at home in this body, or flesh, but prefer to live unto God through the indwelling of his Holy Spirit. This is what I believe the apostle is talking about in II Corinthians 5:6. In this way Paul's words do not directly contradict other conclusive statements in the scriptures regarding the state of the dead.

Gal 5:16-17 "16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

Rom 8:13-14 "13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

Paul uses the words flesh and body often to convey similar messages. I believe that II Corinthians 5:6 is another one of them. Again, this makes more sense than the apostle contradicting what other writers of the scriptures, and he himself has said.

 

If Paul really meant that the dead are present with the Lord, when he said, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, then he sure does contradict himself. This is not a good thing for an Apostle. When speaking of his own death, he conclusively stated that he would receive his reward along with all other believers, at Christ's second coming.

2 Tim 4:6-8 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

This does not sound like a man who expects to be with the Lord immediately at death. Besides this, Paul clearly refers to the dead as sleeping in other scriptures.

1 Cor 11:30 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

1 Cor 15:51-55 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Not only does Paul refer to the dead as asleep in the above scriptures, but he also reveals when the dead will receive immortality, that is, at Christ's second coming. Someone who is mortal, is one who is subject to death. It is when the dead are raised that they receive immortality. All this talk from Paul is complete nonsense, if those who died in Christ are already with the Lord in heaven, and very much alive.

1Thes 4:13-18 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Again, those who are alive when the Lord returns, are caught up together with those who were asleep, or dead. The two, that is being dead (asleep), and being alive, are contrast in the above scriptures. If you are mortal, and you die before the Lord returns, then you will be dead, or asleep until Christ returns. Being dead and alive are not one and the same thing. Your wish to hang what you want to believe upon this scripture about being absent from the body, causes the scriptures to contradict themselves. More over, it causes even this one author, Paul to contradict his own testimony. If indeed the scriptures are so contradictory, how can anyone rely upon them?

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Unfortunately this text says "more" than that. It says that the SAME KNOWING that is in existence during the LIFE of a PERSON - does NOT exist once that person has died.

That point is devastating to your position - yet it is obvious in the text. I understand why your treatement of the text needed to ignore it - but then - you probably should not have used that text for your argument.

In fact in Eccl 3:21 (as in the case of Eccl 12:7) we find that the "spirit of ALL mankind goes to God". Not just the "good mankind" spirits.

Again a point devastating to your own views. But the SDA view is that this spirit that goes back to God is in fact dormant, innactive until the resurrection when it is united again in a body. So in that sense "the PERSON sleeps".

And because the spirit is dormant and does not "think" or "worship God" - Christ is correct in saying in Matt 22 "God is NOT the God of the dead but of the living".

This parable is indeed told by Christ - showing Abraham to be sovereignly in charge of all dead saints and showing appeals regarding favors in the afterlife to be directed to Abraham as the sovereign of all the dead saints - sitting in his lap.

A parable that suited the Jewish audience "perfectly" but would not go over as well with the more gentile oriented Christians of today - if taken literally.

As already admitted (by you) this is a parable NOT an eyewittness account of the sovereignty of Abraham. And the POINT of the parable is NOT that Abraham is really in charge of the saints - the point is that IF you do not accept the OT statements of Moses then you will not truly accept the teaching of Christ. (Luke 16:31) EVEN though Christ is risen from the Dead.

First of all - I have to commend you for that sequence. If I had not already studied the point and found the flaw in your argument I would have said that was excellent!

The problem however is that in 1Peter 3 the point is made that "Spirit of Christ preached to the spirits (of men) NOW in prison" but WHEN does the text SAY this happened and WHICH spirits of men are explicitly identified? "Those who WERE disobedient WHEN the patience of God KEPT WAITING IN the days of Noah DURING the construction of the ARK" 1Peter 3:20.

In other words it is a reference to the Holy Spirit- the Spirit of Christ ministering to the people DURING the days of Noah.

And this is in perfect exegetical rendering given the CONTEXT of 1Peter - where Peter HIMSELF states the the "SPIRIT OF CHIRST within them was predicting the sufferings of Christ" 1Peter 1:11.

Peter starts out telling us about the Spirit of Christ and His Work in the OT.

It is not a reference to evangelizing dead people as a few have hoped.

This is actually pretty good of you to note that Elijah never died but that Moses did. (And by the way - this is an even better text for making your case. I applaud you on this one).

Unfortunately for your argument you have TWO problems with Matt 17 (assuming you are not Catholic).

#1. Jude 9 appears to give endorsement to the book "the Assumption of Moses" by actually quoting it. And of course that book describes the Assumption of Moses.

#2. IF this were NOT the case - then the Matt 17 incident would be the first record of a "seance" and would model that activity for Christians. Conjuring up dead spirits to appear to us and speak with us. IF you are Catholic you probably don't have a problem with this - and will gladly call it a Mosaic apparition. But if not - you clearly see the problem.

Clearly so. And as you point out - the SOUL in reality does not cease to exist in the ultimate sense according to the NT teaching. Indeed in 1Thess 4 we see that the PERSON has "fallen asleep" when the die the first death - but as you note in Matt 10 - it is REAL soul death that is inflicted by God.

Not much of a quote - but I will help you. In 1Sam 28 - it is the servant of Satan that brings up Samuel, that speaks to him and that claims to "see him". The King of Israel (Saul in this case) does not have such "powers over the dead".

OF course in 2Chron 7:10 we are told that in fact it is the MEDIUM that is consulted - and IT is what is speaking - not Samuel the saint.

Again - however - this is an excellent seance text about conjuring up the dead. AND if it were truly showing the great power of the servants of Satan over the saints who have died - we would be having a very different discussion.

The 2Cor 5 text gives a very good case for THREE states in vs 1-9. The living state in this life clothed with our mortal bodies that are wearing out. The UNCLOTHED state Which Paul said "is not desired" and the 3rd state mentioned there is the Clothed state - clothed with our eternal body. Something that happens WHEN "what is mortal is SWALLOWED up by life" vs 4.

Paul already stated WHEN the Mortal puts on immortality and WHEN death is SWALLOWED up by victory in 1Cor 15. He says it is at the 2nd coming and the resurrection of the saints.

Of course for the one who dies this APPEARS to be at the moment of death - since the DEAD know not anything - the resurrection APPEARS to be the very NEXT thing that happens.

Don't let anyone kid you - those were very GOOD ones! I like it when someone makes "the best" case for theif view and I have to say you have used a list of the VERY BEST in this case for attacking the Bible doctrine of "sleep" and the "mortal man" view taught in scripture.

I applaud you on your presentation.

And encourage you that the point of man HAVING a spirit that goes to God and that persists - though "asleep" is in fact - excellent.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Ok NewRef - now it is time to turn the tables -

(DHK knows this one is coming - you might want to ask him about the best way to respond to it).

In Matt 22 Christ gives an argument FOR the resurrection that can ONLY be made using the concept of "Sleep" that we see presented in 1Thess 4 and John 11. IN His argument the ONLY solution to the problem He gives the Sadducees is "the resurrection".

Consider it carefully.


23 On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him,

Here we have hostile interviewer that does not believe in the doctrine of the resurrection - this is one of the few times in scripture
where Christ debates a point directly without side-stepping the debate in order to foil the bad guys. First the bad boys setup the
question in a way that they suppose will "silence Jesus" with an unanswerable dilemma.

Like all good debaters - they start of assuming Christ's position - that there IS a resurrection of the dead. Their objective is to
show that using his own view - the problem is not solvable and so He is in error.


24 asking, ""Teacher, Moses said, " IF A MAN DIES HAVING NO CHILDREN, HIS BROTHER AS NEXT OF KIN SHALL MARRY HIS WIFE, AND RAISE UP CHILDREN FOR HIS BROTHER.'
25 ""Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother;
26 so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh.
27 ""Last of all, the woman died.
28 ""In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her.''

Here the Sadducees present the “problem” for Christ’s view – showing that at the very first opportunity for the woman to be in any kind of relationship with her husbands (the resurrection of the dead) the problem is not solvable.

Because the Sadducees do not believe in Angel, or spirit or resurrection – they see no other “opportunity” for the problem of the woman and her 7 husbands to surface using Christ’s view of what happens after death. Apart from the supposed future resurrection that Christ teaches, they so no other time for the woman to relate in some way to her husbands after death.

They see no problem in death for Christ’s view – just a problem at the resurrection.


29 But Jesus answered and said to them, ""You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.


In this case Christ puts them off by getting to the heart of their real problem - not knowing the scriptures OR the Power of God. They are hardly in a frame of mind to be instructed by the humble carpenter’s son. His claim that they do not know the Power of God or the scriptures – is not convincing at all to them. They see this as simply an insult. Nothing “compelling” in the dialogue so far.


30 ""For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Step one - He solves their riddle.

He uses the “Given” that they have handed him – which is “Given that His teaching is correct” – and He shows that if one is using His set of truths – there is a solution to the puzzle – “No marriage”.

His solution is IN the details regarding resurrected saints - not dead ones.

In arguing that IN the resurrection “They are like the Angels” Christ is tossing another barb their way since they ALSO do not believe in Angels. (Insult added to injury as they say).

Step two Christ choose to debate head-on making the SAME form of argument against their view that there is no resurrection..

He returns the favor - showing that using THEIR one view – using the Truth that they Still have - they should know that the resurrection is a sound Biblical doctrine.

So like all good debaters -He begins by telling them what he is going to prove (That the future resurrection is a fact of scripture) and then starts off with common ground.

31 ""But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God:
32 " I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'?

Here He is not arguing that they “need to finally accept” this statement in Exodus 3:6. They already accept it. He is simply pointing out truth in THEIR OWN fully accepted set of beliefs. In this case it is a statement that God makes to Moses in the land of Midian long After Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have died - but BEFORE they are resurrected - Exodus 3:6.

This point is not debated or challenged by the Sadducees – they already fully accept it – and they don’t ask for the authority Christ to get them to accept the OT. He is working with what they already fully accept.


32 He is not the God of the dead but of the living.''

Here again – Christ is not asking for this hostile group to “trust Him and believe Him”. Rather He knows they Already think of the dead in this way. They Already consider that God is NOT the God of the dead. In fact they even go beyond that – they argue ALSO that “there is no resurrection and no spirit” (Acts 23:8).

So here is the SECOND point of Christ’s case – a point that they fully accept and in fact that they would “insist” upon. He points out that God is NOT the God of dead people – and YET God stated to Moses – that He was the God of Abraham.

In their own argument used against Christ - The very HEART of their own argument in this chapter was that NO relationships – NO life beyond this one is possible since it would be too complicated to work out the various complexities carried forward from THIS life. God is indeed “Not the God of the dead” in their view – the dead have “no relationships” not with married spouses and not with God.

The obvious problem “To be solved” is that Abraham is dead when God spoke to Moses saying “I AM the God of Abraham” and as already “agreed” God “is NOT the God of the dead”!!.

At this point Christ’s argument for the iron clad case of the Resurrection ENDS!!! “How unexpected”! say many Christians today. “How“ incomplete”! they argue.

You see – many Christians today do not see what the Sadducees AND the Pharisees saw in this devastating debate with the Sadducees that PROVED beyond all doubt that the resurrection is the ONLY possible solution to the problem Christ has identified. For modern Christians there is “another solution” and this is “Abraham has an immortal soul that IS worshipping God while dead” – in their view God IS the God of Abraham – HE IS the God of those who have died –For though the body is dead – Abraham THE PERSON is fully alive in heaven and God IS the God of Abraham – at the time God makes this statement to Moses. NO resurrection NEEDED – in the view of many of today’s Christians the problem is entirely ”solvable” without the resurrection.

However to the Sadducees and Pharisees the point was abundantly clear, Christ (the ultimate debater) presents them with a dilemma whose only solution is "the Resurrection". He leaves them with NO escape since by their OWN reasoning God is NOT the God of the Dead. God was claiming to be the God of “Abraham” the “person” not just “Abraham the dead body” and God is NOT the God of “Dead Persons”. Once Abraham (the “person” not merely Abraham “the body) died – God was NOT the God of Abraham (the person) any longer if there is NO resurrection. Only by virtue of the fact of a future resurrection could these two statements be true.

They already accepted that God called Abraham the father of many nations while as yet he had no children. They accepted that God counted future events as though they were already a fact. So now Christ argues the SAME future view for the resurrection – showing that BECAUSE of the resurrection (and ONLY because of that) God could still claim to be the God of Abraham EVEN when speaking to Moses – long after Abraham died. Christ COMBINES the two key points that they already agree to – and makes the devastating debate point FOR the resurrection. (Which is the nature of an effective debate point). Christ’s argument was devastating to them. Though they would love “not to see the point” they could not pretend not to get it.

And indeed Christ told them at the start that He would show them a problem for which the future resurrection that He taught was the ONLY solution.

But "both" parts of his premise must be true to conclude that the "only solution" is the resurrection. Part-A that God is NOT the God of the Dead and Part-B that God DID say He was the God of Abraham when speaking to Moses long AFTER Abraham died.

33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.
34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together.


Now this is really interesting because it shows that the proof was obvious to the entire crowd. Even the Pharisees could see that Christ had "silenced" the Sadducees by this devastating proof. Christ's argument is brilliant - but it only works if you believe both parts of His premise AND if you accept that the ONLY way for BOTH statements to be true is for there to be a Future Resurrection.

Sadly, many Christians today argue that they have “another solution” for BOTH of those statements to be true – and it does NOT need the resurrection to “make them true”.

The Jews – of Christ day – were not so blind to this point.

--

NewRef - I await your reply.

In Christ,

Bob

 

What is the Soul of Man?

“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” (Genesis 2:7) The body (dust) plus the spirit (breath or mind) equals a living soul. When the spirit (breath or mind) returns to God, then the soul is no longer living. The Hebrew word for “soul” is vp#k# (Nephesh), which means “living being.” (Brown Driver and Brigg’s Hebrew Lexicon)

This is why God said that even animals are living souls. “And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life [Nephesh—literally; “in which is a living soul”], I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.” (Genesis 1:30)

The Hebrew word “Nephesh” can also mean “mind, or tablet” (Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary), in which is contained a record of every word, thought, and action of a person’s life; his very being or who he is. When a man dies there is still a record kept of him. While he is dead he is not a living being but a dead one.

Can a Soul Die or Cease to Exist?

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die. …” (Ezekiel 18:20) This is not talking about the first death, from which all will return; but the second death, from which none shall return. “For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.” (Obadiah 1:16) After a man dies the first death the record of that individual will not be forgotten, but after the second death they will die completely, both body and soul.

“Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath [Ruwach] goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” (Psalm 146:3, 4) The spirit, or breath, of a man goes to God and he returns to the dust of the earth. What does the Bible tell us happens at this point? In that very day his thoughts perish; he can no longer think. He remains asleep in the dust, unconscious of anything, until the Lord raises him from the dead.

“But,” some may say, “don’t the righteous go straight to heaven when they die?” “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. … For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.” (Acts 2:34) David will be in heaven, but he has not yet ascended to heaven. Peter’s argument was “We know that David is not in heaven, because his sepulchre is still with us.” Peter knew that David’s bones were still in the grave.

Christ is risen from the dead. Are His bones still in the tomb where He was buried? No! Anyone who still has bones on this earth could not possibly be in heaven. This is the argument that was made on the day of Pentecost in Acts chapter two. When Christ was raised from the dead, the Bible tells us, many were raised at that time. Are their bones still in the grave? Certainly not!

“And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.” (Matthew 27:52, 53) All those who are in heaven now do not have bones that remain on this earth.

“So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.” (Deuteronomy 34:5, 6) Moses died, and was buried, but no man could find his sepulchre because the Lord raised him from the dead.

“Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.” (Jude 9) The fact that Moses was raised from the dead is evident by his appearing with Elijah at the mount of transfiguration. Elijah was taken to heaven on a fiery chariot without seeing death. “And, behold, there talked with Him [Jesus] two men, which were Moses and Elias.” (Luke 9:30)

David, who has not yet ascended to heaven, said, “As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.” (Psalm 17:15) David will be satisfied when he awakes from death, not during the time that he is dead.

“Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.” (Isaiah 26:19) The first thing we notice about this verse is that the dead men shall, at some time in the future, live again. These people are not living now, but they shall live at some time in the future. Right now they are those who dwell in the dust. We have already seen that when we die we return to dust, there to remain in unconscious sleep until the Lord raises us from the dead.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

All this - you have already stated (and I have already responded to it)

Now will you respond to my question for you?

In Matt 22 - SHOW how your view as stated above WORKS to "Force the conclusion of the Resurrection as the only solution for the stated puzzle".

And please don't pretend to forget what the puzzle was stateed to be -- here it is again.

#1. God said to Moses "I am the God of Abraham" so this is long AFTER Abraham had died.

#2. God "IS NOT the God of the dead but of the Living".

So HOW would that force the Sadducees to conclude "Well then clearly there MUST be a future resurrection otherwise BOTH of those statements can not be true".

Please show your work.

AGain - I await your detailed reply to that Matt 22 puzzle "Showing" how they were "compelled" to take the resurrection as "The only solution".

You might want to respond to the Matt 22 post "in detail" as I did with yours - to make your point "most covincingly".

In Christ,

Bob

 

No one has 'an immortal soul'. Man, while alive is a living soul. There is no question that God made man, intelligent, nurturing creatures. That doesn't make us MORE than what an animal is. Man is a precise mixture of God's Breath of Life and the elements of the earth. Those two combined make up a living soul. A 'nephesh chay'. In each place that those words are used, it means LIVING SOUL. Some places it is rendered just soul. That's where your confusion comes into play. YOU THINK that because man is intelligent, we must be immortal? Show me just ONE verse in the Bible where it says that man has ANYTHING that is immortal RIGHT NOW. None of the future tense verses about us obtaining eternal life and immortality count in proving this question. You are looking for RIGHT NOW.

Ok, you cross tied your own shoes on that one! God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. BUT, who is Jesus? He is LORD! He is the one who will awake the dead in Christ, to eternal life. LOOK: Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

It goes with the subject. How can you die a second death, if you haven't ever died a first one? hmmm?

No, I am going on the premise that the equation was given in reverse in Genesis when God formed Adam from the dust of the earth and the breath of His nostrils. In that passage it tells us that at death, that same breath and dust that formed man, goes right back to where it came from. And you will ask 'well where does 'Bob' go?' Bob will 'sleep' just as the Bible says he will. Awaiting the resurrection.

You are going on a faulty premise on that one. The Bible does not say that AFTER Christ died, and DURING the time between His death and resurrection He went to preach! The reason you believe this is because you believe in the immortality of man's soul, and because you don't believe that Jesus really died. He really did die! He didn't just die physically. THAT would not have atoned for us! We need a COMPLETE death. He died the SECOND death. That is why I brought it up. Those who die after their lifetime, 'sleep' until judgment. Some will awaken to everlasting life, but those who awaken in the second resurrection will die the second death. The reason we, who are in Christ, will not have to die the second death, is because Christ paid that penalty FOR US. If He DID NOT DIE a COMPLETE death, then we still have it coming to us!

Parable. If it is not a parable, why don't we have an account of Lazarus telling everyone about this happening when he was raised from his SLEEP, as Jesus called it?

You're right, His Spirit went back to God who gave it, just as the Bible says it would.

No He didn't. He did not say 'this day'. You have a whole other debate to go through based on that ONE verse. I can clear it up for you in a few sentences. Did Jesus go to paradise that day? Did the thief? Do you have any proof that the thief died THAT DAY. Remember, a day is an evening and a morning, so at sundown a new day starts. It was nearly the end of the day when Christ died. It takes another false doctrine to make this false one work. You aren't immortal, and neither was the thief. The thief asked Jesus to do something. "REMEMBER ME when (key word there) you COME into your Kingdom". Jesus responded with 'Verily I say unto thee To day shalt thou be with me in paradise'. WHEN? When Jesus comes into His Kingdom! When is THAT?

When your bones have decomposed, then the saying 'ashes to ashes and dust to dust' will be brought to fruition. Where will your 'bones' be? Your remains will be right where you left them. What, are you worried God won't be able to find you if you aren't intact?

Are you serious? Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. This is a reference to a book written by Joshua called the Assumption of Moses. You didn't HONESTLY think we just make stuff up do you? That's the CATHOLIC church, not the SDA Church!

Creamation is just a speeding up of the process of decomposition. You return your body to 'ashes' before the time it would take to occur naturally. And NO, that doesn't mean you get to go to heaven. How silly is that?! Your bones ARE HERE, they are just DUST now, just like the Bible says. You came from dust, to dust you return. Your body is made up of the elements of the earth. When you die, it goes right back where it came from.

You grew in your Mama from the nutrients in the food that she ate, that came from the earth. You are OF the earth. The 'spirit' or 'breath' that animates you, goes RIGHT BACK where it came from, GOD. It isn't 'you'. It is the same spirit that animates my fish, and dogs, and cats. It is the breath of life. When it leaves, you 'give up the ghost'. Is it YOUR ghost? Nope. It is GOD'S, therfore it goes back to Him.

BTW, your last comment/question had NOTHING to do with the quote you put it under, so I am going to put it in here again, so you can respond to it:

.....David, who has not yet ascended to heaven, said, “As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.” (Psalm 17:15) David will be satisfied when he awakes from death, not during the time that he is dead.

“Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.” (Isaiah 26:19) The first thing we notice about this verse is that the dead men shall, at some time in the future, live again. These people are not living now, but they shall live at some time in the future. Right now they are those who dwell in the dust. We have already seen that when we die we return to dust, there to remain in unconscious sleep until the Lord raises us from the dead.

I'd appreciate it if you would attempt a rebuttle to this!

Thanks & God Bless,
Kelly

[ July 04, 2003, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ]

 

3AM, Please clear something up for me. If Christ took what was coming to us literally, and if that is a COMPLETE EVERLASTING death, why did He not have to stay dead as your doctrine seems to imply?

 

Hello NewReformation.

A question. Are you saying that Christ was in prison preaching between his death and resurrection, or that he was in paradise with the thief on the cross during this same time? Or are you saying that he was in both places? Or are you just so interested in disproving soul sleep, that you don’t care if you contradict yourself in doing so?

If Christ was in heaven with the thief on the cross when they died, how could he have said the following.

John 20:17 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

If Christ had not yet ascended to the Father after his resurrection, how could he have been in paradise with the thief on the cross during the time between his death, and resurrection?

The original language that the new testament was written in, did not use punctuation's. The commas in this verse and others, were added when translated to English. The person who made this translation, apparently believed that the dead go straight to heaven or hell. Because of this, he placed the comma before the words to day instead of after them. If one were to place the comma after the words to day it would completely change the meaning of the verse. It would simply mean that Christ was telling the thief on that day, that he would be in paradise with him. This would be a more accurate and biblically sound rendering of the verse.

The Lord Jesus Christ was in the grave, that is the heart of the earth for three days, just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and nights. Jonah's description of his experience in the belly of a whale is certainly no description of paradise, nor does it seem to depict a place of eternal torment. Yet this experience was said by Christ to be a sign for those who were seeking proof of Christ's divinity, that is that He would be delivered from the power of the grave, or death.

Matt 12:39-40 "39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Apart from this, it is very unlikely that the thief on the cross died on this same day that Christ did. One who was crucified usually did not die for days. This is one of the things that made the punishment so terrible. Christ, as we know, died of a broken heart.

John 19:31-34 31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Notice what Christ says in the following verses.

John 14:1-3 1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

In verse three Christ says that He will come again and receive us unto Himself. This is a clear reference to his second coming, at which time we will all be gathered togehter to be with Him forever more. Christ did not say, when you die you will be with me, he said when I come again, I will receive you unto myself. Bye for now.

Your brother in Christ, Keith.

 

Hello Smoke Eater.

Here is the answer to your question.

Phil 2:5-8 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


The way of the cross is the first and continual act of following Christ. It is justification and sanctification for the Christian. This one righteous act by Jesus was but the literal fulfillment of what had been going on spiritually in His life from the beginning. Sacrificing the will of His own human sinful nature in the flesh and allowing God's will to be performed in Him.

"28 Then said Jesus unto them, when ye have lifted up the son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself, but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. (John 8: 28& 29)

When Jesus said that he did nothing of himself he must have been referring to his human nature and divine nature for He possessed both. However it was only his human nature that would ever do something other than what God wanted. It was this nature that he crucified continually while here on earth and finally ended all together on the cross. Both Christ's divine and human natures were yielded up on the cross, however only one was never to rise again, and this is salvation. By faith we enter into this experience, crucifying the old man that Christ might live in and through us, creating a new creature (Rom. 6).

We are sinners Smoke Eater. We have sinful natures. Christ took this sinful nature and lived a perfect life in it, and then yeilded it up on the cross forever. Now by faith we can be crucified with Chirst, and yeild up our sinful natures to him. This is our salvation. We may choose to die now in Christ by following him, or we can choose to live now in our sinful natures, and die the second death later. Christ did die the second death on the cross. The sinful nature of humanity which he took upon himself when here on earth, died the second death on the cross, never to live again. I hope this answers your question.

Rom 12:1 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Luke 9:28-36 makes it clear that God's people immediately return to Him and are given our eternal bodies.Moses and Elijsh are standing there as men talking to Jesus about His pending Passover Sacrifice as the Passover Lamb.This is approx 1500 years after Moses walked the earth in his Adamic flesh body.

 

I just "Know" that someone is going to have the courage to take up the Matt 22 challenge I posted here.

Still waiting. I will repost the challenge again - if there is continued reluctance to address it.

In Christ,

Bob