The Christians "Salvation"

Sounds like the god of Calvinism who elects to send babies to hell for no other reason than divine fiat.

*SLAP*

"Owwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!"

KNOCK IT OFF, ED!!

*snif* I'm sorry!! (fingers crossed behind back).

 

Hey, Hey,

A response..
Thanks, Singer!

You said :

Question: Singer, would you agree that Paul was addressing his letter to believers? (hint: It starts out: "1Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus,
To all the saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons")

These people that Paul addresses he has instructed personally, we know this how?:

Well the passage in question says so itself.:

" 12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

So naturally my question to you would be: How is it you have such assurance as noted above (with your quote: "As for myself, my fear and trembling stopped when I accepted the Lord and it was replaced with thanksgiving, joy and assurance.")that is so much stronger than those at Phillipi who Paul taught personally and commended them for their obedience? Why did they not have the same ever lasting eternal assurance you have? Eventhough Paul taught them personally. Was Paul deficient in teaching them in person but so much more effective these 2000 years later?

Or could it be that Paul never taught that one should have that once saved always saved mindset?

I hope you receive this in the spirit it is intended as it is just an earnest inquiry. (If you knew me better you'd know that while I enjoy sarcasm, I'm a bit too light hearted for my own good!

God Bless
Steve

 

How does the jailer's belief save his household?

 

Well I just might enjoy you then, Steve as I've never met a light hearted Catholic yet.

I've got 3 busy days ahead if you can wait.

It's stressful to be a star !!!


Singer

 

How does the jailer's belief save his household? </font>[/QUOTE]Harley, Harley! um, you kind of left out vs. 32 through 34, but, I know it was just a little oversight right?

 

A question asked by many is: does James 2:14-26 contradict what Paul says in Romans 4:1-8?
The answer, of course, is absolutely not! For, the Bible does not contradict itself. The context of each book is important. The book of Romans is a treatise on soteriology going into great detail about the doctrine of salvation. In Romans 4, Paul explains the theology of how one is justified by faith and not by works. He gives examples using primarily the example of Abraham throughout the chapter, but also refers to David. Justification is imputed without works by faith alone.
On the other hand the James writes a book to his readers of practical Christian living. He is not so much concerned with the theology (of course all of God’s Word is theologically correct), but rather the every day living of the common person. In chapter two he discusses works in relation to faith. But the point that he is making is that the works are an outcome or result of genuine faith. If your faith in Christ does not produce works then your faith in Christ wasn’t genuine to begin with. Here is the key verse in that chapter:

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Look carefully at the scenario James was putting forth (no doubt it happened many times). He was accused of having “faith,” or believing that salvation was by faith (even by faith alone). Thus, “Thou hast faith.” His accuser says, “I have works,” implying that his salvation was based on his works. To that James replies “Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” The man had works but no faith. He could not demonstrate his Christianity, only his hypocrisy. But James could demonstrate his faith in Christ by his works. His works were a result of his faith in Christ. It was the faith that justified him. It was the works that became a natural outcome of the faith. The two went together inasmuch as a faith that does not result in works is not a genuine faith in Christ at all. True Christian faith results in the fruit of the Spirit.
Read the rest of the Book of James and see what practical advice he dispenses: chapter 3—control of the tongue; chapter 4—prayer, worldliness, the will of God; chapter 5—riches, suffering, healing, prayer.
It is not so much a book of theology like Romans, but rather a book of practical advice.

2. Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Verses 12 and 13 must be read together which emphasizes the critical importance of context for accurate interpretation. "Work out" does not mean "work for" one's salvation as most of the cults teach. Paul is not teaching "works salvation". The idea as discussed more fully in the next section is to progress to the finish or completion in spiritual growth and maturity. Peter would phrase it a bit differently but gives essentially the same exhortation writing "applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence..." (2Pe1:5, 1:6 1:7 1:8 1:9 1:10 1:11), concluding his epistle with the exhortation (command) to "grow (continually) in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (2Pe3:18) This process is called "sanctification." Verse 12 makes it clear we are to be active, not passive, in this process. But praise God although we are active, we are not alone for the next verse reminds us again that the entire salvation process is a work of grace by our sovereign God. "For it is God Who is at work in you" is the firm and ultimate foundation for our past, present and future salvation. Our salvation is "by grace...through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God not as a result of works"(Eph2:8, 2:9). Works can no more retain salvation for us than they can achieve it in the first place, but works are the visible evidence of salvation and so we will do good works if we are truly saved "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph2:10). The next verse assures us that God is now working in us, through His indwelling Holy Spirit, to enable us to do these good works. This is good news.

http://preceptaustin.org/philippians_212-18.htm

I hope this helps.
DHK

 

How does the jailer's belief save his household? </font>[/QUOTE]c'mon Harley, you should know better than this!

Don't resort to cheap shots; they don't work!

 

Sounds like the god of Calvinism who elects to send babies to hell for no other reason than divine fiat.

*SLAP*

"Owwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!"

KNOCK IT OFF, ED!!

*snif* I'm sorry!! (fingers crossed behind back). </font>[/QUOTE]No, No, Ed! That's not Calvinism. You've got it all wrong.
That's what we call "Augustinianism."
DHK

 

quote:
Originally posted by faithcontender:
Acts 16:31
Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved and thy house.


How does the jailer's belief save his household?

When he believed, all his house also believed.

Acts 16:32-34

And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes ; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

 

Brother Adam,

Thats the reason why I have such concern for those caught in the clutches of catholicsm, and other systems filled with error.

By personally embracing the Lord Jesus Christ, through faith alone.

Blessings,

Mike

 

Steve,
While you're musing the scriptures during my absence, I'll provide one scripture to weigh against your one scripture and that will give us a good start on our way to deciphering forever (haha) the question of salvation's greatest mystery (i.e.....Is it a salvation of works or a salvation of grace).


Your question:
So naturally my question to you would be: How is it you have such assurance as noted above (with your quote: "As for myself, my fear and trembling stopped when I accepted the Lord and it was replaced with thanksgiving, joy and
assurance.")that is so much stronger than those at Phillipi who Paul taught personally and commended them for their obedience? Why did they not have the same ever lasting eternal assurance you have? Eventhough Paul taught them personally. Was Paul deficient in teaching them in person but so much more effective these 2000 years later?



Scripture to study:

1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:12
He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

1John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


Steve, one good thought to begin with is that if you have the Son, you have life. The writer must have expected that person to KNOW that he had life. If a person does not have life (and know it), then he must not have the Son. He would be one who is still working to receive the Son, wouldn't he? I wouldn't want to be in that position.

I'll catch ya in a couple of days.
Keep your lightheartedness and I'll try to also.

Singer

 

How does the jailer's belief save his household? </font>[/QUOTE]Harley, Harley! um, you kind of left out vs. 32 through 34, but, I know it was just a little oversight right? </font>[/QUOTE]Well, not really. The way it's written Paul tells the jailer to believe so that he and his family might be saved; then the jailer goes home where his family is [immediately] baptized; then the whole family believes.

How could Paul know that the jailer's belief was sufficient? How could his family be baptized before hearing the Word, repenting and believing?

 

I'll catch ya in a couple of days.
Keep your lightheartedness and I'll try to also.

Will do, enjoy yourself. When you return perhaps we can approach this topic not as a "(.....Is it a salvation of works or a salvation of grace)" contention, but as a "just how are works incorporated into the theology that we are saved by grace. (DHK provided some material if you've had the chance to read it)

...I've found coffee has a great effect on being lighthearted..
But I bet belting out a tune every now and then, can do the trick as well!

Take care
Stephen

 

Hi,

Works incorporated into the theology that we are saved by grace still reassures us that we are saved by grace. At least in my life, the works follow and get their commission from the grace. I don't feel that I work in order to obtain grace and I don't feel that God withholds grace because I haven't worked (in any certain incidence). He's not measuring his grace to me in accordance to my responding with works. "God first loved us while we were yet sinners" was penned about two thousand years before I was born. I don't feel he excluded any of us in that statement and He is not sitting idly by while we muster up enough works to get His attention.

If either God or I were to rely on my works prior to His offering of salvation, I'd be a miserable mess and might only do works in spite. If they're not done in love, they only become bait for a hoped for reward.

If read and considered all of the applicable scriptures and it comes to a choice.

Do I want to:
1). Do works in hopes of receiving eternal life.
2). Thank God for His gift of eternal life and live out my faith by my works.

Performing last night to a group of believers was much rewarding. Our words and music came from the heart (I sometimes sing with my eyes closed). I could not help but notice the glow on the face of one elderly man. He must have been a believer for many years as his countenance was that of thankfulness for his salvation as he sang along on many numbers. I can't believe he was there to impress God of his righteousness via his works.

Singer

 

Singer,

Thanks for your post, it sounds like you get to experience some real strong stuff through your singing. Very admirable if I may say so. Have you ever recorded yourself?

I would like to discuss further your understanding of works into your beliefs etc. And then perhaps contrast them with a Catholic understanding of the same. Not neccessarily in a manner where I condemn yours are make things confrontational to the point where you might try to condemn ours.

I prefer just to express the differences and except that these are the beliefs of others. Afterall, ones conscience is his guide, and we use many things to help mold our consciences. The Holy Spirit, the Bible, learned individuals, our own experiences, or our own qualified interpretations, Church pronouncements (in the case of a Catholic) are just some of the means of molding our conscience.

So, to that end would it be fair to gather from your posts that you believe: (Please feel free to correct or elaborate on any of the points-afterall, they are YOUR beliefs I am attempting to enumerate and understand.)

1.) We are saved (that is eternally guaranteed of our going to heaven)at the moment we first believe. (believe meaning: making a mental consent at accepting that Christ died for our sins in a personal way.

2.) That once we believe in this manner -nothing can jeopardize this eternal guarantee of Salvation.

3.) That we are saved by God's grace (that is un-deserved and un-earned gift of God)through faith (faith meaning essentially the same as belief -a mental consent that is)

4.) That works are evidence of ( and in no way beneficial to, or required of and completely inconsequential to) our being saved. (I'm not sure whether you are saying that they are neccesary to prove our being saved, and admittedly I'm assuming that if one has no works, then there are no consequenses for the one who was truly saved. Other than that they may not have been truly saved. This would not have been a consequence but an indication then.-Right?)

5.) That justification is synonomous with that one moment in time salvation (or being saved)and would best be stated by saying: "We are justified by grace through faith and by faith alone"

6.) That any other theology that incorporates works differently into the theology of how one is saved, places an inordinate amount of emphasis on works and nullifies the "faith alone" concept noted above. In other words, if works are viewed even slightly different than noted herein then they become a pitting of "salvation through faith" against a "salvation by works" theology. (I'm just trying to understand what leeway you yourself might express that there is in regards to the view of works coupled with faith.)
and,

7.) That nothing we do (belief as a mental exercise included)can increase the grace (free gift)from God. (I would like to understand better you concept of what grace as defined in all of its applicable forms is, and to what extent after a person has been saved it is needed.)

I hope this has served in establishing a starting point for MY understanding of Your beliefs- I realize they cannot possibly do it the justice you might do. But hopefully it is a good starting point. Please revise where needed. And then I hope to either post a Catholics concept in relation to the above points, but first some questions relating to your points.

God Bless
Stephen

 

Geez, Stephen; just when I was going to opt out of the amusement/entertainment of this board, you come back with 7 new questions.....


Edited to add:
A dependence on works to save would eventually be frustrated by a wonderment of the reality of salvation itself.....thus leading to activities that would hope to enhance one's chance....leading to more frustration.
That description might cover all of the above questions.

Ya think?
Singer

 

I agree, works won't work.

However, my 1-7 points above are my attempt at paraphrasing what I think you would believe. I was hoping you would either agree that the points are a fair representation of your beliefs or make amendments where necessary. (not to make you "work" too hard though.)

Thanks,

God Bless

 

1.) We are saved (that is eternally guaranteed of our going to heaven)at the moment we first believe. (believe meaning: making a mental consent at accepting that Christ died for our sins in a personal way.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth
confession is made unto salvation.

2.) That once we believe in this manner -nothing can jeopardize this eternal guarantee of Salvation.
The unpardonable sin is the deliberate refusal to acknowledge God's power in Christ. It indicates a deliberate and irreversible hardness of heart This would be the only way to reject salvation.

3.) That we are saved by God's grace (that is un-deserved and un-earned gift of God)through faith (faith meaning essentially the same as belief -a mental consent that is) Correct


4.) That works are evidence of ( and in no way beneficial to, or required of and completely inconsequential to) our being saved. (I'm not sure whether you are saying that they are neccesary to prove our being saved, and admittedly I'm assuming that if one has no works, then there are no consequenses for the one who they may not have been truly saved. This would not have been a consequence but an indication then.-Right?)
You think too deeply

5.) That justification is synonomous with that one moment in time salvation (or being saved)and would best be stated by saying: "We are justified by grace through faith and by faith alone"
It only says "through faith; not of works"....We can assume faith without something else would happen to be alone can't
we?
6.) That any other theology that incorporates works differently into the theology of how one is saved, places an inordinate amount of emphasis on works and nullifies the "faith alone" concept noted above. In other words, if works are viewed even slightly different than noted herein then they become a pitting of "salvation through faith" against a "salvation by works" theology. (I'm just trying to understand what leeway you yourself might express that there is in regards to the view of works coupled with faith.)

You might consider that if you're doing something that you would expect others to do in order to receive salvation, then THAT might be a works issue. You're safe as long as you don't incorporate your works into the salvation formula. Let your works be in honor and promotion of the gospel of Jesus Christ and not as a tool to tease God into accepting you into His Kingdom.

7.) That nothing we do (belief as a mental exercise included)can increase the grace (free gift)from God. (I would like to understand better you concept of what grace as defined in all of its applicable forms is, and to what extent after a person has been saved it is needed.)

Your question sounds like you might think that I believe salvation is automatic (without exercising belief).
Again, if you're directing me to any given system already set forth that you mightsubscribe to that will enable my salvation beyond what it already is,........then you
might be offering me a system of planning / otherwise known as "Works" .

To borrow from Bro. Curtis:

Romans 4:2-5
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Debt.....did you see that?
Does God owe us salvation because of something we might do? I'm glad you don't agree with that philosophy. We, of all denominations fall under the same plan of salvation. God knows no titles other than Believer and Non-Believer.

Singer

 

Singer,

Thanks for the details elaborating on the points I had made. I think it is safe to say that I put down what your beliefs on Salvation are.

The only part that is still a little cloudy to me, is that you said:

"Your question sounds like you might think that I believe salvation is automatic (without exercising belief).
Again, if you're directing me to any given system already set forth that you mightsubscribe to that will enable my salvation beyond what it already is,........then you
might be offering me a system of planning / otherwise known as "Works" ."

Yes, I did think that you believe salvation is automatic (and as evidenceing the Romans passage that once you've established your belief in your heart and confessed it with your mouth that you are saved. What I'm confused about is your statement about "exercising belief". Are you referring to the confession as being the exercise or something else?

If you will then answer a few more questions based on the same points as the other post. (Sorry to put you to so much work, but I think it is only proper to allow you to express your beliefs rather than me assuming something. )

I'll await you response to the one question included here.

Thanks, and all the best
Steve