A Cult is a Cult

Interesting, DHK. My Bible says entirely different things:

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Now try to THINK about this for a second. IF the New Covenant is made with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, then unless you are ethnically a Semite, a Jew by birth, you are not included in it, are you?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?????

Or could it be that contrary to your rant, the New Covenant is not something different, but a continuation of the Covenant of God UNDER A NEW ADMINISTRATION which includes the mercy of God to the Gentile "dogs" such as we are?

You better hope it is the second, or you ain't got a chance.

And if it IS the second, then the Church HAS taken the place of the Hebrew nation and IS the "Israel of God".

As for this statement:

They were not hearing of a covenant; they were hearing the gospel. Get your facts straight.

Lu 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is shed for you.

Jesus said that His Blood is the Blood of the New Covenant. Why don't you?

So what answer to deny the above Scriptures do you have this time?

Brother Ed

[ August 26, 2002, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: CatholicConvert ]

 

John --

Fair question. Hope I can answer it to your satisfaction.

First of all, we see the office of Judas being passed on in the book of Acts rather than dying out. Now if it was that the offices were to die, then certainly we would not have seen any sort of election for another to continue the office, right?

Secondly, it is a principle of covenantalism. Please go read Ray Sutton's book online. It is a free read and it is a good explanation from a non-catholic source as to how a covenant works.

There are 5 working principles which make up a covenant relationship. They are:

T = Transcnedence of God

H = Hierarchy

E = Ethics

O = Oaths and Sanctions

S = Sucession (continuity)

The two principles for the passing on of St. Peter's office are Hierarchy and Sucession. We see this in the way that the office of the king in the Old Covenant was passed on. We also see it in the smallest covenantal unit on earth, the family. Study the patriarchial headship of the OT family and you will see that the headship of the family is passed on from generation to generation. This is what happened when the patriarch was lying on his deathbed. The oldest son was "heir to the throne" so to speak. The leadership of the family fell to him, and the blessing of the father with the laying on of hands transferred this authority to the eldest son.

The Church is the earthly covenantal family. It is the kingdom which is set up as a family. We have a father (covenantal headship = the pope) a mother (the Church = the helpmeet of the covenantal head) and the offspring (believers). This corresponds to the heavenly family in which we have the covenantal Head (Jesus the Christ), a Mother (The Blessed Virgin = the helpmeet to Her divine Son, who, like all the saints, carries out his authority and orders) and the eternal offspring (all believers who have eternal life in Heaven).

If you study Hebrews 8: 4-5, you will see the principle that the earthly Church is to be set up after the exact patterns of worship and heirarchy in Heaven. Thus, that which is on earth, to be properly set up, must be a type and shadow of that which is in Heaven.

And it was these discoveries, as I came to better understand the covenant and move from a strictly legal understanding of the covenant to a familial understanding, which made me convert to the Catholic Faith.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

"Mormons must blindly obey Joseph Smith and his succes-sors" "blindly" is a mistaken view of why members of The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints, follow their Prophets! The restored gospel of Jesus Christ to the earth and it's message has come under fire by many of it's enemies, unfortunately, they being like Paul, the apostle, before he was converted. Our enemies know not what they speak! We do not blindly follow anyone......that the world cannot accept the fact that the heavens are not sealed, and that God revealed himself and His Son to the boy prophet Joseph Smith, is at the very foundation of all the hatred, and vile accusations made against the Church of Jesus Christ! We are called non-christian because The Father and the Son appeared as separate and distinct personages, each having separate bodies of flesh and bones! This was a truth revealed to the world by God, through the instrumentality of the Prophet Joseph Smith! Young Joseph did not ask for this bestowal of knowledge....his was an inquiry in prayer regarding all of the confusion that existed around him at the time with regards to religion, and his request of the Lord was which of all the sects he should unite himself to! He was asking in faith, believing he would receive as James 1:5 instructed anyone who lacked wisdom to do! He sought the Lord in prayer! He was chosen by God to become the Prophet of the Restoration of all things to the earth before the Second Coming of the Savior! He was familiar with scriptures and knew of the fate of many of the Prophets of old, yet he did not shrink from the call of the Lord, and humbly responded to all that he was instructed to do....even though it was not popular or "politically correct" as we might describe it today! His vision of the Father and the Son, dispelled the erroneous doctrine of the trinity handed down by corrupt teachers who established this doctrine without the benefit of revelation! And the "christians" of the time, could not and would not accept what Joseph had to share.......and he was called upon to seal his testimony of all the revealed truths given him, with his blood! He suffered greatly at the hands of his oppressors....as did all who followed! But the work of the restoration was not destroyed, as some thought it would be, at the death of the prophet! It is escalating in it's cause and the stewardship of the Lord shall be fulfilled through the marvelous work that now goes forth among all nations of the earth in preparation for the Second Coming of the Savior! As in the days of Christ, few accepted and remained true to that which He gave to them! The Apostles were killed and the apostasy from the way of the Lord began and continued until the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ, of latter-day Saints upon the earth, in preparation for the Second Coming of the Savior! The agency of man will ever determine his outcome here on earth, and those who have the disposition to commit evil will continue to do so, and those whose disposition to love the Lord will continue in spite of the claims, lies and unbelief of those who would thwart to work of the Lord.....it will go forward and fill the earth, and shall not be destroyed until it has accomplished the mind and will of the Lord! If we shoot the messenger before we have heard the message of peace and salvation........we have harmed ourselves and many generations that follow hereafter! Follow the advice in James 1:5-7....if you are truly seeking truth and understanding, remembering if we go before the Lord with our minds made up, our prejudices still in place, and our hearts hardened against the truth, truth will never be revealed to those who lack the faith to hear!

 

Hi there, Ed, we have had this discussion before, but exactly what is the New Covenant? It is a new relationship between people and God founded on the blood of Jesus. It is a personal relationship. Jeremiah describes it as when each man shall know God in his own heart. Baptism is symbolic of how you enter it, confession of sin, repentance, obedience to God, death to the old man, and rising to new lfe in Jesus. To personally know God! To be indwelt by His Spirit! No Old Testament Jew would have said, thats not a good deal. But a personal relationship is as great as that, and is that. You cant have a personal relationship with someone you have not met. Look at baptism. If you baptise a child, does the child repent? No. Do they confess their own sins? No. Do they ask Jesus to be their Lord? No. Have they died to self and been raised to new life in Jesus? No. The infant has in no way entered into a personal relationship with God. Acts 2 says "what must we do to be saved? Repent and be baptised!" The infant has not repented. They have not entered into a personal relationship with Jesus. You cant repent on someone else's behalf. If someone hits you, then I appologise for them, without their will or knowledge, then that appology is meaningless. Likewise you cannot confess a child's sins on their behalf, repent on their behalf or die to self on their behalf. Raise the child in the knowledge of God, lead them to Jesus, pray with them teach them, but let them have the joy of their own baptism, of standing before the church and owning Jesus as their saviour, the one they now know, recognise love and truely wish to serve. You cannot have an inpersonal personal relationship.

 

Hello my friend and brother from down under!!

Yes, we have indeed had this discussion and several versions of it in the past. I think that perhaps I would like to take another tack with you this time.

When Helen Keller, bind and deaf almost from birth was explained the Gospel, she exclaimed "So that is who He is. I have known Him since a child!!"

Now how is this possible under your paradigm which equates intellect with knowledge? Could it be that this is just one form of knowledge? Does knowledge come to one full formed, or does it grow? How is it that you might say that an infant cannot know in his soul and later with his intellect? The fact is, my friend, neither your nor I know what happens in the soul of man.

We do have the testimony of Scripture that John, still in teh wobm of his mother, Elizabeth, upon hearing the salutation of Mary, LEAPT FOR JOY!! Obviously, this one yet unborn understood something which, although he could not speak of it from the intellect, nonetheless gripped him in a profound way beyond our understanding.

To demand perfect understanding further reduces grace to merit. It takes the unmerited grace of God, given freely by His immense love for mankind, and makes it a reward for studying, for understanding, and quite frankly, for coming up with the right doctinal understanding of the truth. I do not deny the importance of truth, but I see that when Christ spoke to the crowds who constantly thronged Him, He spoke of living the truth, not just knowing it. To reduce salvation to a proper intellectual formula is to deny the outworking of God's Spirit in men's hearts in a way which we cannot know. Remember, we do not know the work of the Spirit by observation: John 3:8.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

[ August 26, 2002, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: CatholicConvert ]

 

And you fall for this: hook, line and sinker--BLINDLY; without any intellectual basis or foundation whatsoever. The things written in the Book of Mormon are not only historically inaccurate they are historically wrong--made up fairy tales that have never been documented. Those things that do pertain to Christianity are also often historically inaccurate. For example, the Book of Mormon has the birth of Christ in Jerusalem, rather than Bethlehem, a mistake so obvious as to show how fraudulent the book is. You follow the teachings of a demon-possessed young boy who had no teaching in the Bible, but was not satisfied with the orthodox teachings of Christianity. A demon appeared to him that he called Moroni. This was no angel; it was a demonic spirit. This religion is not of God; it is of Satan. How do we know this? By your view on Jesus Christ? Who is he? Is He God come in the flesh: yes or no?

Jesus Christ is God, nothing less. He is not a created being. He is from all eternity and will be through all eternity. He is the same: yesterday, today, forever. He is the Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Lord Jesus Christ of the New Testament. He is the Alpha and Omega; the Beginning and the End: with Him there is no beginning or end--he reigns for all eternity and always has. He is the Almighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. He is God. He is the Word, the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us (the people of the first Century). It was God that died on the cross. It was God that paid the penalty for your sin. It was God that rose again from the dead.

The religion of a demon called Moroni, taught by a misguided boy called Joseph Smith, is not a Christian religion and never has been. There is no intellectual reason for one to put their faith in such a religion.

I would rather trust the One who died for me. The same One who created me. That One to whom all the world gives evidence to, that indeed He is God, and there is none else beside Him (Isa.43:10,11).
DHK

 

I think I'll stay out of this one

 

Carson,
I,m just curious though. I was thinking about this today. Lets say that I was baptized as an infant in the prebyterian Church as a baby. Later on I converted to Catholicism (Oh what an awful thought) Would I get rebaptized in the Catholic church or would the original baptism suffice?

psalm

 

Well then, let me tell you: It comes from the fact that Catholicism sends people to hell. "Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way." (Psa 119:104) When you read the Word of God and thereby get understanding then you hate Catholicism.

Hmmm... I just read the statement and replaced the word "catholic" with "baptist" and came up with a statement that's just as accurate.

Those us us who think we're better than the rest of the Christian demoninations in the world need to reread Jesus' statement about seeing the speck in the eye of our brothers. RCC bashing in baptist congregations is unfortunately at an all-time high. Right now, you can't be a Baptist and be a democrat. You also can't be a Baptist and be anything but anticatholic. I think I saw this same thing happen during the McCarthy era.

 

Lets say that I was baptized as an infant in the prebyterian Church as a baby. Later on I converted to Catholicism (Oh what an awful thought) Would I get rebaptized in the Catholic church or would the original baptism suffice?

The RCC recognizes Christian baptism, not denominational baptism. If you've been baptized in another denomination and convert to catholicism, you don't get rebaptized in the RCC.

 

Psalms --

Lets say that I was baptized as an infant in the prebyterian Church as a baby. Later on I converted to Catholicism (Oh what an awful thought)

You know, believe it or not, I actually DO understand that last sentence in parenthesis. If you had told me three years ago that my future was to convert to the Catholic Faith -- well, I don't know how I would have taken it.

As for your question, if you remember that the kingom of God is a family, that it is entered into by making covenant with God through baptism, entering into Christ's death burial and resurrection, then you will understand that you only get baptized once. That puts you in the family, and you is in fer good!! Even if you should be disinherited and not receive eternal life, you are banished not as a pagan, but as a child of God who spurned the inheritance of Christ and went his own way.

Oh, and just a note for your information. My godparents had their newborn son baptized this past Sunday. We were all so overjoyed, because she was NEVER supposed to have children after being almost killed by a drunk driver.

You would find this interesting. We have a very large baptismal laver which is placed in the center of the church in front. It is filled with warm water and the baby is IMMERSED in it three times (name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit), being sure that a portion of the head touches the water.

THIS is the way baptism was done in the Early Church. And, interestingly enough, the Roman rite is slowly returning to the proper form!!

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Dear Ed, just a quick note on a totally unrelated topic. Did you post the e-mail adress of a really good article on Catholic and Protestant views of Justification done by some Baptist guy some time back? I really liked it and cant find it.

All the best, Colin

 

Dear Aussie --

Don't think so. Don't remember it. Could you perhaps give me a word or two in the title to jog my memory.

Brother Ed

 

First of all RC Popes readily recognize Rival Popes as "Anti-christ" since the claim to the papacy constitutes "anti-Christ" if that claim is false. Even the Catholic church agrees on that.

The fact that Protestants do not consider the Papal claims to be "valid" should not be a "surprise".

Secondly - lets say a "new Christian denomination" starts up today. They worship their dead ancestors. (I.E - they pray to the dead).

They invent something like "purgatory" but a little different. They then come up with a scheme to pay the church and get loved ones out of pregatory. They say the church has a "Spiritual bank" of "merit" upon which she can 'draw' when compiloing a specific "indulgence" for one who earns her favor.

They declare their leader to be "infallible" when speaking on points of doctrine.

They make statues of their ancestors and begin worshipping before them - kissing them etc.

And perhaps they slaughter a few rival Christian groups for a while - then stop and ask for "understanding" among the bretheren.

They warn against thinking that you can go "straight to God".

They claim that only THEY can be saved under the New Covenant - all other Christians must be provided some non-Biblical way into heaven.

They claim "magic powers" for their preachers - such that EVEN if the preacher is "defrocked" his magic powers "remain" - he can create the body and blood of Christ and save infants from being lost by saying the magic words.

They claim to be able to hear and forgive your sins.

It is clear that EVEN the RCC would condemn such a group. Indeed the JW's and LDS etc would pale into insignificance next to them.

Yet we have not begun to consider "queen of the Universe" Mother of God etc.

There is nothing to compare it to. The RCC has no equal, no rival, no peer. She stands alone - at the very top of that pinnacle of cultism and yet this does not mean that her members can not be saved or that their prayers to Christ are not heard. Her acceptance is solely related to her popularity and longevity. If she were to rise up from nothing today - nothing could hold back the dissapproval she would recieve from other Christian groups.

Indeed - even RC Popes agree with this in their treatment of rival popes.

In Christ,

Bob

 

They are referred to as "anti popes," not "anti Christs." St. John is his letters says that the "anti Christ" will deny that Christ has come in the flesh, and neither the pope nor the anti popes claim these things.

You're insinuating that it is a Catholic practice to pray to the dead, and thus, worship them. First, Catholics pray FOR the dead. Second, Catholics pray TO/THROUGH the saints, those we know are in Heaven. Third, there is absolutely no worship involved, and you are showing a lack of knowledge in what that word means.

Pregatory? I hope that was a typo. I'm not even going to delve into indulgences here...that's a whole other topic's worth.

You would prefer we believed he was always infallible? What's your point here, and why is said belief wrong to you?

Kissing = worship. New to me.

America slaughtered quite a few British. The British slaughtered quite a few Americans. People from Alabama slaughtered those from New York, and vice versa. I assume you like to hold grudges, since you're opposed to the idea of righting past wrongs.

If you're even insinuating that this is a Catholic practice, I'm going to be sick.

Too vague. Could you explain?

Priests say the words, God does all the work. Using the word "magic" is both insulting and showing ignorance. And I pity the poor pastor who cannot preach and perform God's work because he is a sinner. Last I checked...we all are.

No, but they DO have the gift from God to be able to hear sins and forgive them in the name of Jesus Christ our savior.

Yeah, because Catholics don't worship ancestors, statues, have magical powers, or ignore Jesus Christ as the means to access the Father.

No, we haven't. Start a thread and we'll discuss it.

Yeah, too bad all the other Christian groups sprang from the Catholic church. I'm sorry you have no control over the past like that.

This conclusion is unrelated to the body of your argument.

In Christ Jesus, our mutual Lord and Savior,

Grant