99.9% of all Catholics Going to Hell

Hi guys I'm posting from my sister's apartment in College Station, TX - it's so good to be in the Lone Star State

Hi Dr. Bob,

You wrote, "Baptist teach/preach and demand fidelity to salvation by faith alone by grace alone, without rite, ritual, creed, tradition, etc.

Oh, but Baptists do preach and demand with ritual, creed, and tradition. Your method of reading the Bible in a way that is foreign to the early Church in the history of Christianity is your Anabaptist tradition, which reads the Greek word of anothen in the third chapter of John the Evangelist's Gospel divorced from the act of baptism, which both precedes, succeeds, and permeates this particular chapter.

A creed is a statement of faith, and without propositions of truth gained from Christian revelation, we have nothing to believe; the Baptist most definitely has a Creed.

Regarding ritual - a ritual is simply something that is repeated, and as far as I know, the Gospel hasn't changed. Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone is still Lord, and so when his Lordship is preached (this is the Gospel, you know, according to St. Paul) by Baptists over and over and over, you are certainly distributing the infinite merits of Jesus Christ through the ritual of repeatedly preaching the Lordship of the Incarnate Son of God.

You wrote, "to be a "baptist" you must be old enough to make this a personal decision. No babies, infants or little ones."

The Baptist aversion to infant baptism seems to mirror the sentiments of the apostles who rebuked those who brought infants to Jesus. Jesus' response seems to address this situation:

Now they were bringing even infants [brephe] to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, 'Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God' (Luke 18:15).

If infants cannot be brought to Jesus, then they cannot be saved, or you must admit that they are somehow sinless. Or, you must admit that they are saved by Jesus Christ without making a personal decision for Jesus Christ, and then, you must admit that somehow infants are first saved in Christ and then lose their salvation and then must be saved again by the cognitive "acceptance of Jesus into one's heart", which is a formula I have yet to discover on the pages of the New Testament.

For a Jew, like St. Paul of Tarsus, entry into a covenant is accomplished through an oath, and to be a part of the covenant family without an oath (the Latin for "oath" is sacramentum, hence the English sacrament), would be a contradiction in terms. It would be like saying you are an adult without having gone through adolescence. An oath is necessary to enter into a covenant, and I have found covenantal ignorance among the adherents of the Anabaptist tradition to be not only unJewish, but fatal in understanding the role of Baptism in the Christian life.

As Flannery O'Connor responded to Mary McCarthy, a lapsed Catholic, by letter regarding baptism: "Well, if it's a symbol, to hell with it."

You wrote, "Are 100% of baptists "truly born again"? No."

Your statement above leads to the logical conclusion that the existential, infallible assurance of one's final perseverance (i.e., being "truly born again") is untenable and so it follows that you cannot claim the possession of eternal security because you do not know whether you are one of the "not truly born again".

[ July 20, 2003, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Doing the math, you will discover that of the current 6 1/2 Billion living on the earth today, the very generous 5 hundred million baptists make up a meer 7.7%

As has been noted the number of Catholics vs the number of baptists shows the catholics outnumber the Baptists, significantly!

Dr. Bob noted that not all baptists are saved, but he did not give a value or ratio, so is it not possible to do any calculations. Since he concludes thusly, let me conclude that there is an equal ratio between Catholics and Baptists that are actually saved. Thus there could theoretically be more Catholics in heaven than Baptists.

 

You do know what ASSUME means do you not?

 

The point is Dr. Bob, no man can know, therefore, it is pure foolishness and mere speculation on anyone's part to even consider such bean-counting.

God alone "knows" the numbers, and He does not care from which faction of His church people align themselves, only that they do come with Faith in Him and his Son.

So, let's stop the factionalism within the church and get busy doing the "making of disciples" in the manner that "born again Christians" are supposed to do.

Who can make disciples? Anyone who knows by faith what the gospel message is and anyone who cares enough for his acquaintences and family to tell them about Jesus and what Jesus did for us, and what it takes to be saved!

 

Yes, it has been awhile. Where have you been hiding out all these days?

You make judgements every day. If a complete stranger walks up to you and asks you to "loan" him $1000.00 dollars, would you do it without any judgement? Even if it were just $10.00, would you give it to him without making a judgement first?

This is what Christ says about judging:
(John 7:24 KJV) Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Here is what Paul says about judging:
1Cor.2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

The Bible does indeed say that we are to judge.
I said specifically that I judge a religious system, and its theology. It is impossible for me to judge the hearts of one billion Catholics whom I have never met, not in my lifetime will never meet. In order to judge a "person," you need to meet the person, or know the person in some way--like TV. You can't judge a person you have never seen, heard of, know nothing about, etc. But you can judge the religious system that he belongs to.
It is impossible for a Muslim to be saved without forsaking Islam.
It is impossible for a Hindu to be saved without forsaking Hinduism.
It is impossibel for a Mormon to be saved without forsaking Mormonism.
It is impossible for a J.W. to be saved without forsaking Jehovah's Witnesses.

It is impossible for anyone to be saved, who belongs to a false system of religion, unless he first is willing to forsake that false religion, and then embrace the Biblical Christ. Christ is not Mohammed, nor the 'Isau of the Koran, He is the one and only Divine Christ of the Bible.

Some of the Catholic apologists on this board have come from Baptist or other Protestant backgrounds. They seem to have a clear testimony of salvation. Then my question is to them: How can you embrace Christ as your Saviour and still, at the same time, embrace so many doctrines which are utterly indefensible (no matter who hard you try) by using the Bible alone (such as: Mariolatry, purgatorty, infant baptism, etc.)?
If the Bible is correct (and I believe it is), then your system is wrong. I am not judging hearts, I am judging a system of religion which I am acquainted with through my own experiences, a system which bore no spiritual fruit. However, more important than my experience, I judge it by the Word of God, and it just doesn't match up.
DHK

 

Your response indicates clearly that you completely misunderstand that infants being brought to Jesus in the bible is not infants being brought to salvation, even though Jesus is the author of salvation. Jesus was not saving people when He was here among us. He was instead persuading people to have faith in Him. Faith is what saves.

Small children, even infants are open, essentially having faith in all adults. Not having any reason to fear or distrust anyone. That is why Jesus said (to wit) "unless ye come as a little child, you cannot enter into the kingdom of God".

Are you amazed that someone would say that Jesus did not save anyone while He was among us? Well It's true with the possible exception of the Thief on the cross whom Jesus said would be with him "this day" in paradise. Jesus did not save even one person while he was among us because it is our faith that saves us. Therefore, Jesus' role is to cause us to have faith, that saves us when we depart this natural life.

Thus it is faith, in the manner that a child has faith that saves us, and not the presence of a child on Jesus' knee, or at his feet. Every human that is saved is saved the same way and for the same reason and and that is the person's faith!

 

DHK, funny, I can see the false doctrines that Baptists preach and truths that they deny yet have no urge to pass judgement. The Bible also warns against judging others, judge and be judged I think it is written. Mr Griffin didn't condemn Catholicism, he condemned 1 billion Catholic souls to hell, he took on the role of God the judge, but it happens all the time around here.

 

Indefensible?! Your kidding right? At this point I find it harder to justify "faith alone" (which all the Bible says on it is that it isn't by faith alone) than I do that the saints in heaven might be able to pray God's blessing on those still on earth.

Bro. Adam

 

A reference please for the saints praying God's blessing on those still on earth.

Please show us all those scriptures that makes it painfully clear that more than faith is required for salvation!

Please show us those scriptures that make it painfully clear that works will get us to heaven.

Please show us those scriptures that make it painfully clear that Jesus atonement alone gets us to heaven.

I could go on, but you get the message.

 

God has blessed my wife and I with our fifth child last month, so needless to say I have had little time to post latley. Anyway, a couple of points with what you wrote:

But dont you see by supporting the good Dr.'s quote you are judging peoples hearts. He condemned them to hell, not just the theology.

I was not speaking of everyday judgments we all make on groceries and such, but on us (specifically you and the Doc) saying who is going to hell and not.

I agree with you...sort of. By judging someone you can correct their sinful behavior or atleast advise them of it. But you should not judge someone in the manner that Dr. Bob opened this can of worms up. By saying who is going to hell and who is going to heaven.

They are wrong according to your interpretation of Scripture.

O.K. then you are not in complete agreement with Dr. Bob who judged 99.9% of Catholics are going to hell?

I judge the Catholic Church by the Word of God also and find that it adds up better than any other church my wife and I investigated prior to and after our marriage. I have prayed with a sincere heart for guidance and believe we have received such guidance. The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion as Protestant churches have become. Everybody "feeling" he is lead by the Holy Spirit but believing and teaching something different about the Word of God. Each claiming they are right (as you do) but you and I both know that they cant all be right.

God Bless.....

 

A reference please for the saints praying God's blessing on those still on earth.

Ask and you shall recieve:
Both
1 Corin. 12:12-27
Romans 12:4-8
Speak to the communion of the Saints.

Please show us all those scriptures that makes it painfully clear that more than faith is required for salvation!

James 2:14-18

Please show us those scriptures that make it painfully clear that works will get us to heaven.

I can't. It isn't in there. Only Mormons, JW's and Muslims go for that (yes, Muslims believe in heaven).

Please show us those scriptures that make it painfully clear that Jesus atonement alone gets us to heaven.

It doesn't say that either. Your key word is "alone". Christ blood is the atoning sacrifice for our sins. Just because it is the atonement, doesn't mean everyone goes to heaven. Romans 2-3

 

The classic RC doctrine on "salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church" - is equivalent to the counterpoint of this thread.


Pope Boniface VIII taught in his Unam Sanctam decree (emphasis mine):

The Council of Florence taught:

The First Vatican Council taught:

In Christ,

Bob

 

Reciting quotes from Church Councils and Popes out of context proves nothing.

 

1 Cor 12:12-27 is an analogy to 'the body' in which I do not find anything "specific to saints praying God's blessing on those still living on the earth". Same with Romans 12:4-8, there is nothing specific to the departed saints praying specifically for those remaining here on earth.

I must ask if you are making the claim that communion of the saints equates to "the saint praying God's blessing on those still on earth"?

First, James is addressing believers, people with faith. In spite of what James says in 2:14-18, it is faith that makes one a Christian and not works. It is because of one's faith that one does works; for those without faith, no amount of works will get them to heaven. Even Abraham's obedience to God to offer up his only Son, was an act of faith because Abraham believed God's promise that Abraham would be the father of many nations, yet he had only one son whom God told him to offer up in sacrifice! It would be easy enough to believe when one knows the promise. Therefore it was not Abraham's deed that was counted unto him for righteousness, but his faith in God's promise. If he had not the faith, He would not have offered up Isaac.

It is the same for us. God promised us eternal life if we but believe on his only begotten Son, Jesus. So if you think you must do something to earn eternal life, you are only fooling yourself. You can however, as Abraham did, prove your faith by doing deeds commensurate with your faith. And truly you are oft called on to demonstrate your faith through your works, but it is faith by which you do those works. Those who have no faith also do not do the works of faith.

Like I said!

Correct, It is the atonement that lifts the burden of death from us, and yes, atonement covers ALL the sins of ALL the world. The result is that we are not judged for sin! If we are not judged for sin then what is it we are judged for? Works? Not likely because it is "by grace are ye saved through faith, and not of yourselves it (salvation) is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast". So now we are not judged for our sins, we are not judged by works, that leaves faith alone by which we are either, by having faith, "not judged"; or by which by lack of faith, we are judged and cast into the lake of fire.

 

What would it take then?

Do you believe that those statements mean something else?

God Bless,
Kelly

 

The Bible says not to judge. I don't feel like we should worry about who believes what because we don't have to answer for what others believe in. We only have to answer for our own sins. That's why there is soooo much fighting & killing going on in the middle east today. Exactly what is going on on the bb. Let's all get along & love each other as brothers' & sisters' in the Lord and let the Lord worry about who should believe what & who is going to Heaven or Hell. I'm not getting in the argument, but just want everyone to get along. Peace and goodwill toward men. For Jesus forso loved us that he spread his arms out & died.

 

Yeslew, Of course, I know, I know, the Bible never actually means what it says. It only means what it says if you agree with it. Or else the author isn't saying what he is saying.

 

Faith is never something we do to appease God. God has been appeased by the perfect obedience, bitter passion, death, and resurrection of Christ alone. So, true faith does not look to itself as an object but to Christ Jesus:

When the object of our faith is itself and not Christ, true God and true man, we are trusting in an idol that can never save.