forgiveness of sins

Frenchy, I'm sorry you are concerned about me! rjprince pretty much was saying better what I was trying to say. But I did mean a little bit what you objected to. For instance, my youngest daughter is 21 now. She lied, stole and cheated her way through high school and my relationship with her. She is in a different state now and I have heard from her once in the last two years.

Certainly I have forgiveness in my heart for her, but without her saying "Mom, I'm sorry," that forgiveness just stays put inside me and can't be expressed. So, inside of me, it is not 'completed' even though I bear her no ill will and as far as I am concerned she stands forgiven.

There is someone from my past whom I offended deeply at one time. I have apologized several times and that person refuses to forgive. So while my repentance is complete, there is nothing I can do to finish the whole process by myself.

That is what I was thinking of. And I think of God, so ready to forgive those who come to Him with confession and repentance, but they refuse. So are they forgiven?

I'm not going to pretend to know. But I do know in my life it seems like it takes two.

I think what you were referring to in the prisoner situation was the fact that forgiveness then resulted in repentance. But that was something from both sides, completing the thing. We normally think of repentance coming before forgiveness, but that is obviously not a hard and fast rule, as you pointed out.

I am quite sure that we have caused God more pain than my daughter has caused me. And I am also quite sure that He loves us far more than I could possibly love my daughter. And so I have to wonder if there isn't an ache on God's part for those who refuse to come to Him for the forgiveness He is so ready to supply.

I don't know. It's something I have wondered about. But, to me...for me...forgiveness is something that one person can be ready to give and have in their heart, or another person can desperately want and admit to wrongdoing, but unless both sides are doing their part, is forgiveness really complete?

God judges the heart, so the person who is ready to forgive and has forgiveness in their heart is judged as though it were completed. And the person who is repentant and wants forgiveness is judged that way, too.

I know that -- as I have mentioned before -- forgiving a thief doesn't mean you have to hand him the key to your house. But it does seem to me as though forgiveness does involve some kind of restoration of a relationship, and so it does seem to me as though it takes two for the full thing to take place.

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
And, James, you are demonstrating the same interpretive device. Assuming that there is a separate judgement of believers and unbelievers (because that is what your system has taught you), you have to come up with a way to apply terror and condemnation to believers even though the Bible says "there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus." And what about the fact that all our sins were paid for on the cross? Oh, just make that incomplete, who cares.

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Nay brother, my bible says this:
Romans 8:1
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

And now we are back to the original question, why will we give account if we are forgiven? Even better, why can we be chastened in this life for sins that are covered by the blood, but not the next?

Yes Helen I totally agree with your examples. i too have often thought the same thing when the subject of forgiveness is preached. i say i can forgive in my heart and through God's power and grace, but it sure would be a heck of a lot easier if the other person would just admit some ownership, and want restoration and fellowship. then there can be some healing and being able to move on and to trust more. i see what you are saying.

i still think the statement that it takes two for forgiveness may not be as accurate it takes two for restoration.

Great verse James

As a Pastor and counselor, I have thought much about this whole issue of forgiveness and restoration. Forgiveness may be given by one party, but restoration requires two.

If you have wronged someone, sought forgiveness and made restitution, there is little more that you can do if they refuse to forgive you. You should make sure that you have confessed it before the Lord, but you cannot make the other person forgive you.

On the other hand, it is possible to forgive someone who has wronged you, even though they have never even acknowledged their wrong or sought forgiveness. Your forgiveness is a forensic declaration that the wrong has been forgiven and the debt has been cleared. Unless and until the other person deals with it, you should not just go on as if it had never happened, but you can refuse to keep personal account of the wrong. As I think I stated earlier, forgiveness can be given but trust must be earned. I would add that relationships must be restored and rebuilt.

We studied Psa 3 last night. David brought Absolom back to the city, but never worked to try to restore the relationship. The result was continued and escalated rebellion that wrecked David's peace, cost the life of his son, and almost cost him the kingdom. David had some serious heartbreak in his life...

In the story commonly referred to as the Prodigal Son, I believe the Father fully forgave the son even before he returned, but the son needed to acknowledge his sin. He returned and was received as one "alive from the dead". Yet, in all this, his estate was blown and all that remained was to pass on to the older brother. Forgiveness can be given and relationships can be restored, but often things can never be what they once were. A lot of good lessons about forgiveness in that story.

Originally posted by Helen:
I am quite sure that we have caused God more pain than my daughter has caused me... I have to wonder if there isn't an ache on God's part for those who refuse to come to Him for the forgiveness He is so ready to supply.

...forgiveness is something that one person can be ready to give and have in their heart, or another person can desperately want and admit to wrongdoing, but unless both sides are doing their part, is forgiveness really complete?

...it does seem to me as though forgiveness does involve some kind of restoration of a relationship, and so it does seem to me as though it takes two for the full thing to take place.

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Helen,

Good thoughts. Especially about God loving more and forgiving more than we are ever called to do.

Will pray for your daughters restoration and your comfort. My daughter is almost 23 and it tears me up to even try to imagine your situation. Your daughter may not be ready to come home. Sometimes the famine is not severe enough to drive them back. Sometimes all you can do is weep and pray over them. Tough times. You do not carry this alone. I cannot take much of your burden, but I will pray for this everytime I see your name on the board for a while.

Ray

Rom 8:1 ends with "...to them which are in Christ Jesus." and so all MVs. The last half of verse one is interpolated from verse 4, according to the great majority of Bible Scholars. Just wanted to point that out, not debate it with anyone.

Originally posted by James_Newman:
Nay brother, my bible says this:
Romans 8:1
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

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Even if the last half of the verse in original, which many people doubt, it is merely a further explanation of who the people are who are in Christ Jesus. It is not another requirement. It is saying that those who are in Christ Jesus do not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

This is obvious from the rest of the passage. "To be carnally minded is death." Is that a believer? I doubt it. "The carnal mind is at enmity with God, for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can it be." Is any believer at enmity with God? certainly not. "So then those who are in the flesh cannot please God. BUT (emphasis mine) you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you."

These verses are setting up that there are two types of people - those in the flesh who walk according to the flesh (unbelievers) and those in the Spirit who walk according to the Spirit (believers). This is doctrinal teaching. The practical aspect of living like it comes in verse 12 where Paul begins with "Therefore." This structure is very typical of Paul - Doctrinal first, practical second.

And now we are back to the original question, why will we give account if we are forgiven? Even better, why can we be chastened in this life for sins that are covered by the blood, but not the next?

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The chastening is the means by which God gets to the ends (conforming us to the image of His Son). It has nothing to do with condemnation or judgment. Discipline and chastening are always for growth and betterment, not for punitive reasons. That is why church discipline always seeks restoration. If discipline were punitive, it would seek to make the person pay.

".....who walk not after the flesh" is declarative, not conditional.

Originally posted by saturneptune:
Our sins are forgiven by the blood of Jesus, for those who are saved by His grace. For us, our sins are blotted out, forgotten by the Lord, and removed as far as the east is from the west.

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Truth. Once Saved Always Saved.

A question that has come up lately is if our sins are forgotten, why does the Bible say every idle word that man may speak will be revealed on the day of judgement. Is our sins being forgotten just relating to salvation, and the idle words, which I think also could be every hidden deed, motive and thought in a lifetime, will they be revealed and accounted for at the judgement for believers for crowns and rewards?

I may not have worded this exactly correct, but any thoughts would be appreciated.

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Our life is an open book to God. As we work out our own salvation, each will do it differently. Every remark we have ever made will be revealed, good or bad. This has nothing to do with our salvation as we are now this minute saved, and nothing can change that. As we each stand before Him to see what we have coming, I doubt “dirty” jokes we tell will get any laughter, nor will the “clean” jokes. Jokes of someone such as the “dumb blonde”. We may only be restrained from attending a glorious gathering once every 10 times for the “dirty” joke. But for making fun of every blonde that ever lived, one may enjoy the first “glorious” party, but banned from all futures. No telling what we will lose when we make fun of only “One” person, or Judge any and all.

“Look! It’s raining”, I say. You say, “So it is”. Idle words? Yes these words will be revealed, but this is normal – innocent observational idle conversation; non-condemning, not threatening, by no means indecent, or vile. I think we all have a pretty good idea of what will be revealed of ourselves. We will be shown and understand just how Great He is, and How little and unbecoming we “were”, and know how much Love God really has for such a “worm” as I.

Christian faith, ituttut.

Originally posted by Helen:
John says But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

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Your quote “Because of Jesus' shed blood, God is always ready to forgive” fits very nicely with above I John 1:8-9, ” If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”

But please notice you also include verse 7 that has nothing to do with verse 8 and 9. Verse 7 ” But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.” Verse 7 describes a saved one, and verse 8 and 9 is describing the unsaved. This teaching sounds close to the “troublers” of the Pentecostal churches in Judah, and saying you Christians must now come back to the gospel of the “circumcised” and do as we. To be saved as we you must be circumcised, confess and “repent of your sins and be baptized for the remission of your sins”. After all we all know there has only been one (1) gospel. But Christ tells us He has a New gospel of we Christians today.

Verse 5 sets the stage.

Verse 6 tells those who think they are saved, are not saved.

Verse 7 tells the believer all sins are forgiven. This is the only one in the whole bunch that comes out smelling like a rose.

Verse 8 says this one thinking they are saved only deceive themselves.

Verse 9 tells us how to rectify our error to have all sins forgiven, and

Verse 10 says forget it if we keep on saying we have no sins to be forgiven.

We know there is truth in what John says, but we need to be careful to not join in his "circumcision" salvation. John tells us he will not, just as did James and Peter, preach my gospel to you (me) Gentiles. Will we deny John and the others said this, sealing with a handshake? Or do we call James and the earthly appointed Apostles of Jesus liars? I’ll not do that. I will believe that Old Testament gospel of what the Catholic church and others still believe, for those that were saved under that economy.

But that is not the “gospel” of Christ Jesus from heaven, of “believe on my name to save you, and I will do it”, but don’t bring any works with you as you are saved. They are worthless. We cannot have that Old cloth contaminating this New cloth. ” Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation”, II Corinthians 5:16-18.

I don’t know for sure that today those that wish to be saved as was the Jew (the gospel John said he would not teach a Gentile) can’t do so and come as a proselyte as they did back then, and have that earthly inheritance; But I’m listening to My Lord Jesus Christ as he speaks to me from heaven through his One heavenly Apostle to the Gentile, his name being Paul.

Christian faith, ituttut

[ March 30, 2006, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: ituttut ]