Left behind series

I always become very distressed when I read comment like this. God's word is alive and it is a 2 edged sword able to divide the man. Also if you think that "certain parts" have no current application then how do you lead others to belief in Jesus. When I see things like this I head straight to what Paul wrote in II Timothy 3:16 and hopefully convince the person of his error in stating that certain parts of scripture are no longer relevant.

It is called cafeteria style faith. (Consider your local Luby's and how you go about selecting your meal there.) You certainly have your choices but to approach the Bible the way you would approach the line at Lubys is not only inappropriate, but it usually results in an unhealthy spiritual diet for the believer and a weakened witness to the lost.

[ August 23, 2002, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: Multimom ]

 

Note that no scripture promises us a rapture at any specified time. Instead we are told that Christ we return like a theif in the night to takes us to Him, a Great Tribulation would be a big hint that Jesus was coming back with the next several years if the rapture did not occure prior to the Tribulation.

 

Be sure you study history and discover how a thief came during Biblical times.

It's not as we perceive it. I however think that pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib is a fruitless discussion, since the Bible tells us clearly to "be prepared."

How God does it is beside the point, that we are to be ready is the best we can do.

 

Note that Jesus does promise us that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31).

Note the "if" in the following verse: "IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3). Paul confirms that if we watch for that day it will not overtake us as a thief: "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).

 

Note that Jesus does promise us that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31).

Note the "if" in the following verse: "IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3). Paul confirms that if we watch for that day it will not overtake us as a thief: "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).</font>[/QUOTE]There will be people who turn to Christ, including the Jews, during the Tribulation. A thief comes unexpectedly, we are told to always be ready because he could come at anytime.

 

David,(on topic here, although most obviously are not), I've read all 10 so far and I liked them, but I'd agree some parts were let downs, good thing they were part of a series or no one would read them. All in all I like Left Behind, the last two have been really good, can't wait to read the last two.

 

Thanks, Katie, I was about to give up.

Hard not to get sidetracked sometimes, I just didn't want to stay there.

As to my quirky ways with Left Behind, I received the first one shortly before going into the hospital for a week's stay. It was the paperback edition. So, I started buying only the paperbacks, since I wanted my set to look uniform. I would not dare read the new arrival until it made it to paperback, so folks were talking about Desecration before I had even purchased or read The Mark. I was so overjoyed to finally get that one a couple of months ago, only to be humbled by the arrival of the newer volume - I won't even type it's name for fear I might be reading it too soon.

It's been a good diversion overall, though I usually read the latest in hours after I get it, "inhaling" them as it were.

 

It's possible to know at what time a thief is coming: "Know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready" (Matthew 24:43-44).

"Be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). I believe this is a warning against our becoming unfaithful, for Christ will come like a thief for us only IF we fall asleep spiritually (Revelation 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6). Otherwise you're saying that as long as we're looking for him he can't possibly come.

I don't believe the Bible says that Jesus can come to gather us together at any time, but says the opposite (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).

 

I always become very distressed when I read comment like this. God's word is alive and it is a 2 edged sword able to divide the man. Also if you think that "certain parts" have no current application then how do you lead others to belief in Jesus. When I see things like this I head straight to what Paul wrote in II Timothy 3:16 and hopefully convince the person of his error in stating that certain parts of scripture are no longer relevant.

</font>[/QUOTE]I happen to be an innerrantist. My meaning in saying what I said, is that this message in Matthew 24 is a prophecy to the Nation of Israel. It will not apply to the raptured saints. The message is a very important one, and I believe it will come to pass, but I won't see it.

You will never hear me tell anyone to question the word of God.

 

Hello!

Matthew 24 is apply to us as Christians. Jesus said, "Ye", "You" 20 times in Matthew 24.

Pretribbers usually take verse 42 and 44 out of Matthew 24 to apply us as Church, it is pretrib.

Matt 24:42 and 44 is apply to us as Christians, verse 42 and 44 tells us we do not know the date when Lord comes, but verse 42 and 44 are context with Matt 24:29 - "Immediately after the tribulation..." The gathering together of the saints will be occur after the tribulation- Matt 24:31 same with 1 Thess 4:15-17, and 2 Thess 2:1.
too.

There is no pretrib in Matthew 24. There is only ONE coming at the end of the world - after tribulation in Matthew 24.

Have a nice day!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Hello!

Matthew 24 is apply to us as Christians. Jesus said, "Ye", "You" 20 times in Matthew 24.

Pretribbers usually take verse 42 and 44 out of Matthew 24 to apply us as Church, it is pretrib.

Matt 24:42 and 44 is apply to us as Christians, verse 42 and 44 tells us we do not know the date when Lord comes, but verse 42 and 44 are context with Matt 24:29 - "Immediately after the tribulation..." The gathering together of the saints will be occur after the tribulation- Matt 24:31 same with 1 Thess 4:15-17, and 2 Thess 2:1.
too.

There is no pretrib in Matthew 24. There is only ONE coming at the end of the world - after tribulation in Matthew 24.

Have a nice day!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

I disagree. Mathhew 24 deals with the end-times, after the rapture, and God's children will be blissfully unaware of the horrible things happenning on earth.

We are promised salvation from wrath. We are promised mansions in heaven. We are promised a rapture that the original missionaries expected in their lifetime.

Don't get me wrong, I consider you a brother in Christ. I don't think a post-trib stance affects salvation, but I do think that post-tribbers will set themselves up to be discouraged, thinking they too, will have to pass thru God's judgement. A pre-trib rapture would be the easier thing to face.

[ August 27, 2002, 04:07 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Curtis ]

 

Do you believe Matthew 24:36-44 is after the rapture?

In your view, how will we Christians who will be in the tribulation who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) not be God's children?

Note that during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation; we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day (Daniel 12:12).

In the pre-trib view, will those who "obtain salvation" in the tribulation be "appointed to wrath?" Aren't being "appointed to wrath" and "obtaining salvation" mutually exclusive?

"God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Note that no verse says the rapture takes anyone any higher than the clouds.

Note that Jesus simply said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3). He didn't say he would come back before the tribulation or that he would take us into heaven.

Jesus said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:3). Note that he says we will be where he is after he comes again. He doesn't say he will turn around and go back into heaven. And indeed we will be where he is after he comes again: on the earth during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

I believe Jesus said "In my Father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you," to show why he was going, not why he was coming back, and to show that he still has great and eternal plans for us in New Jerusalem, where the Father will dwell with us after the millennium: "I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Revelation 21:2-3).

Note that no scripture promises us a rapture before the tribulation. Jesus says he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul says Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). We Christians must go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

"When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8)

I believe the pre-trib doctrine may be setting up many in the church for great disappointment when they find themselves in the tribulation.

I believe we all -- whether we are pre-trib or post-trib -- must begin in these days to face and get free of any fear of the coming tribulation and any fear of death:

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone" (Revelation 21:7-8).

"Deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage" (Hebrews 2:15).

"Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do" (Luke 12:4).

"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better" (Philippians 1:21-23).

Does Revelation say the seals and trumpets of the tribulation are "judgments?" I believe God's judgment doesn't come until the 7 vials of wrath at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 15:4, Revelation 16:7), and none of them are directed at us Christians.

The tribulation includes war, famine, plague, persecution, natural disaster, death -- things which we Christians have always suffered, and not because God was bringing judgment against us.

Note that the gospel has never been about the easier thing to face in this life, but victory and eternal life despite facing suffering and death:

"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us" (Romans 8:35-37).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:7).

"Unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake" (Philippians 1:29).

"We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).

"Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" (2 Timothy 3:12).

"I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us" (Romans 8:18).

"For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory" (2 Corinthians 4:17).

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit" (Revelation 14:12-13).

"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it" (Luke 9:23-24).

 

Do you believe Matthew 24:36-44 is after the rapture?

I believe the scripture in question starts at the very beginning of the tribulation. The first part of the chapter tell of the woes the ones left here will face. He is telling them what to expect. Then he says when it will start. I will admit to you that I don't understand everything Matthew 24 is telling us, even very respected scholars debate this passage.

In your view, how will we Christians who will be in the tribulation who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) not be God's children?

OK, you got me here. They will be God's children, but what I meant, and I think you know I meant it, was God's children at the time of the rapture, not the ones who get saved after the rapture.

Note that during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation; we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day (Daniel 12:12).

From my understanding, after the rapture, things are going to be pretty much ok for about 3 1/2 years. Then yes, the post-rapture Christians will suffer. Suffer greatly, from my studies.

In the pre-trib view, will those who "obtain salvation" in the tribulation be "appointed to wrath?" Aren't being "appointed to wrath" and "obtaining salvation" mutually exclusive?

No. Christians today suffer, Moses, David, Abraham, Noah, Adam, Jonah, they all suffered some form of God's wrath. There are Christians with AIDS, cancer, I am saved, but that doesn't mean I am completely at ease with facing the Judgement seat of Christ..."Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him..."1 Thess 5:10. He is talking about the final judgement there, not the judgement of Earth.

I can't reply to every point you made, as time will not allow it, but I do want to say these things...

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

I believe this to be referring to chastisement of Christians, punishment on Earth.

"Unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake" (Philippians 1:29). "We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22). "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" (2 Timothy 3:12). "I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us" (Romans 8:18).

All Christians suffer persecution. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."1Co. 2:14 We will be hated by the world. "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you." John 15:18

[ August 27, 2002, 06:53 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Curtis ]

 

And by the way, I didn't like the movie. Horrible acting, bad editing, like a high school media project. I saw better movies in boot camp.

 

Mr. Curtis,

You said,

"I will admit to you that I don't understand everything Matt 24 is telling us,"

Probably that is true, I believe you.

But, no excuse, Matthew 24 is not hard to reading. Jesus does not give difficult or too deep to his disciples. He gave simple lecture on Matthew 24 to his disciples, because he wants disciples to understand him.

Matthew 24 is apply to us as Christians. Because, Christ said, "Ye", "You" 20 times in Matthew 24. Obivously, it is apply to us as Christians.

Pretribbers quoted verse 42 and 44 of Matthew 24, they saying, verse 42 and 44 both are apply to us as Christians - pretrib. But, pretribbers take verse 42 and 44 out of the context of Matthew 24. Verse 42 and 44 both focus on the second advent - ONE coming.

You said, "Was God's children at the time of the rapture, not the ones who get saved after the rapture."

Do Revelation 13:7, 10, 14:12 saying that the saints are NOT part of the Body of Christ??

We are saints - 1 Cor. 14:33 - all Churches are saints.

You said,

"Yes, the post-rapture Christians will suffer. Suffer greatly, from my studies."

No verse promise us that rapture will occur BEFORE tribulation. We are appointed for tribulation - 1 Thess 3:3-4. Paul tells us, that we must go through much tribulation - Acts 14:22. Jesus tells us, that we shall have tribulation - John 16:33.

Early Church already suffer horrible persecutions to death eaten by wild beasts in Colossuem at Rome.

Millions of Christians were killed by Roman Catholic during Spanish Inquistion in year from 1000 A.D. to 1600 A.D.

Are we better than them?

Christians in America will face terrible persecutions yet to come, will hit us before Christ comes.

2 Thess 2:3 tells us, that the gathering together will not come till we will see apostasy first, and the reveal of Antichrist.

That mean, we as Church will face Antichrist first before Christ comes.

You said,

"I believe this to be referring to chastisement of Christians, punishment on Earth." - 1 Peter 4:12-13

No, this is talking about persecutions, trials, and tribulations.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Hi DPT.

Let's think about the 144000 sealed Jews for a moment. Revelation tells us in Chapter 14...

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

At this point, the Beast has appeared, and the mark of the beast is in full effect. These sealed Jews work is going to be pretty rough. Do you think that a bunch of Baptists on Earth will accept these Jews, performing miracles, singing an unknown song ? I don't. If the church is here, we will point at them, saying "that's not of God!!"

I know I am making a joke, and I mean no disrespect, but your arguments have not convinced me. I am a pre-tribber, all the way. I believe during the Tribulation, I will be in Heaven. I believe it so much, that I would only attend a pre-trib church.

Matthew 24 is for Israel. That is what I believe.

 

HELLO DeafPosttrib !

Bro Rockwell Butler (I'm deaf)

[ August 28, 2002, 02:30 AM: Message edited by: ormond ]

 

Regarding "one taken, one left," note that in Matthew 24:37-44 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as Matthew 24:29-31, just as in Matthew 24:42 he is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:15. There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.

Note that it doesn't show anyone repenting during the tribulation, but says that the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). So it's possible the Christians we see in the tribulation are us, saved before the tribulation began. Jesus doesn't promise us a rapture before the tribulation.

Are they therefore appointed to wrath?

What scriptures cause you to maintain pre-trib?

I believe many of us alive today may be in heaven during the tribulation, but only if we die before it comes. Note that no verse says the rapture takes anyone any higher than the clouds.

Is Matthew 24:42 for Israel?

 

Well, I have posted my views, & backed them up with scripture. I'm not interested in this degenerating into an argument, which is where I see it going. I see Mr DPT on late at night, and I usually say hi, and post something to back up my views. But it has stayed friendly, and I'm starting to think I will not get anywhere in this debate.

So...I guess I'll see you on another thread, perhaps.