THE ROSARY - IS THAT SCRIPTURAL?

I gotta agree with Brother Adam here. And I, too, am not a Catholic.

Rather than discuss the matter further, I'll leave it to the Catholics on the board to rebut the first post.

 

Well Tam, I'm glad your not God! You'd probably get sick of hearing that people are sick and are praying for health day after day for 6,000 years!

The "oh but he didn't tell us to pray that prayer" excuse is the worst excuse of a long line of bad excuses. What do you demand of Christ? Will you get so caught up in English words? The Lord's prayer is the Prayer of Christ to the Father, he to told us to pray this prayer. Sure, we can pray other prayers, but certianly God is not offended if we do as scripture tells us.

Does God get bored with you going to Church every Sunday? Does he get bored if you pray for the salvation of a close friend every day? Does God get bored if you have a sick little one and pray every hour for weeks? Of course not. Considering God's playing field is infinitely higher than mine, and that this prayer is divinely inspired and perfect, I think its good enough for me!

 

Brother Adam,

Well shucks Singer, we could only hope one day that the RCC will clean itself up enough so that I could return to the Church. I was born and raised RCC until I was about 7 or 8.

I'm not "indoctrinated" with RCC theology any more than I am with Baptist Theology or Buddhist theology. I just think the behavior of my Baptist brethren here is horrible.

That exact kind of thing is what turned me off of church attendance altogether. We probably both know that there isn't a "One true church" that has evolved from perfection and still stands for perfection today. At least there isn't one that demonstrates such a nature today.


I've taken the time to lay aside my assumptions that Catholics are going to hell and start learning for myself with an open mind. It's been a year and a half of reading and I've barely touched the surface of 2000 years of literature. I do know enough though to know that the faithful Catholic is as much a brother or sister in Christ as the Faithful Baptist or faithful Lutheran.

I also don't think Catholics are going to hell because they belong to the Catholic Church. I also don't believe they are going to heaven because they belong to the Catholic Church either!!!. They; along with Baptists and all of mankind only have one hope (and guarantee) of eternal life and that is done by receiving and having the Son. "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son does not have life"...1 John 5:11,12. So simple. For me, there is no room for Catholics to maintain a claim of eliteness because of the church they belong to. Nor is there room for Protestants to withhold salvation from Catholics based on that same church. It's still "He who has the Son has life". That's why Jesus said "Whosoever believes in ME shall never die". Believing is followed by a receiving of the Holy Spirit...regardless of church affiliation. Do you agree?

And I will not have brother attacking brother in biased, ignorant, intolerance and stand idly by.

And many of us also strongly feel we cannot stand idly by when certain brothers claim to perform practices that will gain them favor with God.

Why are we all brothers?....because we all believe in Jesus or because we all believe in a certain church...? Then there's this faction that claims......to believe in Jesus means to join their church. See the wrong here??

Singer

 

Tam's point is well taken, and Scriptural.

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
DHK

 

DHK,

Open your eyes, brother. Unless people who are praying the Rosary are doing so "because they don't believe they can be heard unless they repeat the words," you don't have anything. And since that is not the purpose of the repetition (it's meditative prayer, and has nothing to do with trying to be heard), you're left emptyhanded.

 

Tam's point is well taken, and Scriptural.

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]This is addressed elsewhere

 

The Bible teaches a lot about prayer. It teaches us to pray very specifically, such as for kings and leaders, for special needs--as we have many examples throughout the Book of Acts.
But I don't recall any example or command of meditative prayer in the Bible. There isn't

We are commanded to meditate on the Word of God, not on prayer, or even in prayer.

Joshua 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

Psalms 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
DHK

 

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Would He get tired of hearing how much one loves Him if it is sincere?? What parent would tell their child: "Stop saying you love me. You told me that yesterday!" This is not about rules and regulations, it is about a relationship with Christ, God Himself.
I think sometimes we try to think of God as human in the way He thinks and reasons and this, is a great dis-service to Him.

 

"Some of you posters do a masterful job of misdirection and obfuscation."

Are you sure it is not you who is in confusion?


"The Rosary is man-made religion."

The rosary isn't a religion.

I begun to discover that it just isn't worth arguing with you. If you continue to perpetuate half-truths, lies, and misconceptions when you have been corrected over and over, there is no point. Any college professor would flunk your scholarship without a second glance. You don't even make any thoughtful or at least respectful effort to engage in debate. You think you are right so you'll do anything you can to prove it, no matter what you have to resort to.

You can say what you want. You're in my prayers bro.

 

I don't know much about the Rosary, so I'll keep my comments focused on the other detail of this discussion. Mary.

It has been said that Mary is the mother of God. Please explain as the bible clearly states that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were the only Ones present before time began. Also, if God Himself was born from Mary, then He would not be the everlasting God, as He would then have a beginning.

I think the statement about her being the mother of the physical Jesus best represents the factual events.

Let me illustrate.

My mother is my mother. She can say, "I am the mother of James" just as Mary could say, "I am the mother of Jesus." But, where did my soul/spirit originate? Did my mother create my soul? Did my mother have a hand in creating my spirit? Did not God create my spiritual being and place it in the physical body I now inhabit? I doubt any here would argue differently.

Now, if we do not believe that our mothers created our spiritual beings, why then would you believe that Mary created that of Jesus/God?

Yes, Mary was indeed the mother of the man Jesus, but she in no way had any hand in his spiritual "creation". Jesus existed beyond the beginnings of time, in the spiritual sense, with the Father and Spirit, so he had no creation beyond that of his physical body.

Mary was indeed a very good and spiritual woman, but she had no more place in the creation of Jesus than you or me.

My mother was the vessel for my physical body, but, as Mary with Jesus, she did not create my spirit.

Bro. James

BTW, I am enjoying this discussion.

Vain repetitions have been mentioned. This could be the case with any prayer. I have been guilty of using the same lines over and over in my public prayers without giving all that much thought to it. The way I can tell when my heart is really in it is when the tears start to flow and I can not hold them back. Then I know that the Spirit is truly working in my prayer.

God Bless you all.

 

Wow, you really get mad sometimes.

 

Bro. James,

Just so you know, Pastor Larry would disagree with you. He does not believe that God places your soul. He believes it comes from your parents.

 

Bro. James, rbrent has a great deal to learn from you. Thank you for your post.

 

Hi Brother James,

Your premise, "if God Himself was born from Mary, then He would not be the everlasting God, as He would then have a beginning" denies the possibility of the Incarnation. Your premise includes the false idea that the Incarnation entails the beginning of God.

I think the statement about her being the mother of the physical Jesus best represents the factual events.

So we have a schizophrenic Jesus? Two Jesus's in one Jesus?

My mother is my mother. She can say, "I am the mother of James" just as Mary could say, "I am the mother of Jesus." But, where did my soul/spirit originate?"

Aha! So, your mother isn't really your mother! Else, she must have created your soul!

Do you see the gaping hole in your argument?

Now, if we do not believe that our mothers created our spiritual beings, why then would you believe that Mary created that of Jesus/God?

Mary's title of "Mother of God" does not mean that she created the divine nature of God. It means that she was the mother of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. In Jesus, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity assumed human nature, and in Jesus, there is one person with two natures. Mary conceived a person, Mary gave birth to a person and Mary mothered a person. That person is God.

Yes, Mary was indeed the mother of the man Jesus, but she in no way had any hand in his spiritual "creation".

And no one claims that this is so. It is a non sequitur to conclude that Mary's title "Mother of God" means she created God. That's ridiculous.

Mary was indeed a very good and spiritual woman, but she had no more place in the creation of Jesus than you or me.

Ah, but she did! God enlisted the free consent of a human creature in the work of our Redemption. Else, the Incarnation is a form of divine rape, which I'm positive you will not condone.

My mother was the vessel for my physical body, but, as Mary with Jesus, she did not create my spirit.

Therefore, according to your reasoning, she isn't your mother.

 

Well put Carson, I gotta ask though- what on earth does "non sequitur" mean?

 

Latin for "it does not follow": an inference that does not follow from the premises

 

Thank you

 

God has chosen many people throughout history to play particular parts in His grand plan. I do not believe that any of these people attained any measure of deity by these choices yet I do believe we should speak of them respectfully and consider them blessed to have been chosen by God.

Mary was created like all the rest of us and so she's not "special" in that sense. She was, on the one hand, just another human creation of God like all the rest of us complete with a justly deserved condemned sinful nature, but on the the other hand, she was obviously blessed by God to play a role in the greatest miracle of all time. Given this, I must view Mary accordingly and say nothing demeaning about her.

The means of propagation of mankind consists of a natural reproductive scheme involving both man and woman (not just woman) but designed by God and impossible without Him. This design includes the means by which we inherit physical characteristics from our ancestors all the way back to the first man and woman. The design also includes the means by which we inherit certain other characteristics that make up our being associated with the "heart and mind" including our sinful nature. This is why we're already guilty and convicted of our sins the moment we're conceived.

But it is still God that "breathes" life into us and gives us a spirit that transcends the body in which it lives. I believe that each person is a unique creation of God and this spirit is the part of mankind that is most likely "created in His image" meaning it has some attributes similar to that of God. It is this spirit that lives on and will be reunited with a new glorified body some day.

The Trinity of God is eternal having existed before the creation of mankind as well as the "heavens" and earth as we know it and the natural laws of which we are limited. Jesus is fully God and is a distinct person in the Trinity. He was around when each of us, beginning with Adam, was created and life was breathed into us. He is not limited by the boundaries of space and time of His own creation. We did not exist before we were created. Mary, and all the others of mankind specially blessed to perform tasks for God, are not exceptions.

Jesus was made fully man, but remained fully God when he was "created" using, in part, God's scheme of propagation for mankind. The conception, however, was brought about not by natural reproductive means but by the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit. Exactly how this was done is a mystery yet it is no more of a mystery than how man was first created from the "dust" of the earth. We can comfortably trust that God had the power to do both.

Jesus was given the physical characteristics of mankind. He also was subject to the same temptations as mankind thus He must have been given at least some of the same characteristics associated with the "heart and mind" typical of us all. We are blessed that this was the case! He became incarnate on this earth being willingly constrained, in part and for a brief time, in the natural body of man yet still possessing the full power of God, which He was and is, so that He might do that which he was sent to do. He did finish His work and proclaimed "It is finished!" upon doing so.

His earthly "parents" were, by a long lineage, both Adam and Eve through the body of Mary. Likewise, Joseph and Mary, being "parents", apparently raised Jesus the child much like any other of us would have been. But the "father" of Jesus was God the Father. This use of "father" does not imply a natural father of the human reproduction process (there was none in this case) but the Trinity of God which we look up to with such reverence as our creator, savior, and guide and the first person of which we call "Father" as a sign of ultimate respect and intimate love. Jesus did not have a "mother" in this sense and there is no such person in the Trinity of God.

I believe, and hope, I understand this correctly but recognize that as a man I can not really fully comprehend the complete greatness of God and His work.