Question for free willers

Will a non-free willer ever post a straight answer?

CAN you tell me which I am?

As a “free willer”, I am “predestined”. As I am “predestined”, I am a “free willer”. As a “free willer” I have scripture on my side. As a “predestiner” I have scripture on my side.

I have not read all replies, but can you say, or any other has given a “straight” answer from either side, presuming by straight you mean positive proof, one way or the other. Each time one or the other side gives scripture, one then responds with scripture to counteract the other. Isn’t antinomy the order of the day on this subject ever since?

Christian faith, ituttut

 

Well Npetreley, what are your beliefs?

 

ituttut;
I am the same way and asked the same question and was told that my label is "confused". I guess if you don't have the answer you just insult. So look out!!

 

This old farmer has some cattle out, so I probably will not get through the thread while eating, but this post is dead center. Except for the lousy, completely out-of-context, citing of Rev. 3:20, which has not one single thing to do with the subject at hand.

I am not a "free-willer" whatever that attempted pejorative, misleading and un-Biblical term may mean. The Bible uses two Hebrew terms the KJV translates as "freewill" a total of 17 times. As far as I can tell, these words from the same 'root word' have the idea of present spointaneously, or volunteer, or offer liberally, in the meanings. Save Ezra 7:13, where the NKJV translates this as volunteer, in each instance I found, the idea of some sort of "freewill offering" is implicit in the term. So I'll say before I go chase the bovines, I am not a "freewiller", but God is!
In His grace,
Ed

 

Your sarcasm was understood.I was'nt being sarcastic.We are known by our friends as well as our enemies.Your position should be able to stand close srutiny without getting to worked up about it.

So here is the picture I get from npeterely.He has provided the only answer he considers acceptable.Any answer that deviates from his answer is considered avoidance.We are to only read from those who support his position.So now I am willing and waiting for his list of approved authors and the specific material allowable for study.When I am through I will ask him what my response should be.Then I will respond according to his wishes. That way I won't be avoiding anything and he will get an answer that satisfies him.

 

Although there is some truth in my last post,I apologize for the way I presented it. I should not have responded in kind.When all is said and done I do expect to see my calvinist friends up in heaven.I just hope we don't get deparate rooms so they will think they are there by themselves.

 

There's an old story about a man who died and went up to heaven. St Peter started showing him around the heavenly city. They came to one section where there seemed to be a lot of partying going on. The man asked Peter what was happening and Peter replied, "Oh, that's the charismatic section over there. There's always a lot of pew jumping and dancing day and night."

They came to another section where they heard some classical music being played on the organ. The man asked St. Peter, "Who is over here?" St. Peter replied, "This is the Presbyterian section. They use a very liturgical form of worship even up here in heaven."

The next section they came to had a real high wall, so high that he couldn't see the top, and there was no sound coming from the other side. The man asked St. Peter, "who is on the other side of that wall?" St. Peter quickly said, "Shhhhhh." and began to whisper, "This is the Baptist section. They think their the only ones here."

 

Here is the problem ittitut. Here is the substance of a post I made on another thread in response to a question about me claiming that people are held responsible for their decisions:

Calvinists believe that all these scriptures are true. We believe the Bible teaches God's absolute sovereignty and we believe the Bible teaches man's responsibility. When we say this, we get the following reply:

We try to do justice to everything the Scripture says and we get told our view doesn't work. So, who do you (not you personally) have a problem with? Not with me, but with the Bible.

 

But, and I haven't read the link yet, if our enemies are misrepresenting our view with ad hominem attacks and mischaracterizations, then we should not take what they say as having anything to do with the truth.

 

The way I see it is we will never be 100 percent sure while we are on this earth.There will always be that little element of doubt in the back of our minds.We will have it figured out for sure when we get to heaven.

In any event God gets the credit,it is Him who sends the Holy Spirit to make us realize that God is real,there is a penalty for sin,Jesus Christ paid that penalty and He is the only way to heaven.You must count on the risen Christ for your salvation.Now are you forced by an irresistable predestined urge which you have no control over to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.According to my studies the answer is no,according to your studies the answer is yes.Are we both diligent in our studies?My best guess would be yes.Are we sincere? Yes would be my answer.We are talking about a critical momment in time which is so infintismal it can't be measured.We can't come under conviction without the urging of the Holy Spirit.We can't be saved without believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is an old saying. "If the enemy is within range so are you.We better know as much about our enemy as we can."

 

Bill, I know you didn't mean it this way, but I don't consider any non-Calvinist believer my enemy.

 

Calvibaptist (quote)

That's just a few, but should be plenty to get my point across. We see in these verses that the choice is held out to man to believe or reject and he is held responsible for that choice.

That is why we believe that God is absolutely sovereign and man is responsible for his choices. It has nothing to do with a theological system and everything to do with declaring the whole counsel of God.

The two quotes above is what I said were contrary to your belief of predestination to go to Heaven or Hell?

 

You are right.But you get the drift.I try to read from those I disagree with as well as those I do agree with.
Just from my little study here, I find out that perseverance is not the same as OSAS. I was shocked to find out Calvin thought you could lose your salvation.

The stuff about who hanged,burned up beat up,imprisoned,or exiled who was pretty much done by anybody who had any real power,none of these guys were without guilt as far as I read.

I do get tickled though. There are calvinist missionaries on this board who have gone through some pretty scary and some nasty things, for what, to spread the gospel.They believe the great commission applies to them.There are other calvinists on this board who are soul winners(one of those who go and witness often).Why because they believe the great commission applies to them.So they may believe in prredestination and irresistable grace but I can live with someone who is a witness for Christ who tells me he is calvinist.

 

Plain Old Bill;

Where did you read that Calvin believed you could lose your salvation. I saw where he held to his Catholic baptism as an infant as his regeneration but I did not find where he said anything about losing your salvation? Thanks,

 

It was in one of the documents I have been reading over the last three days.There have been so many I can't remember if it was in the institutes or elsewhere.If someone made a false accusation in that direction I would be more than happy to know it.Reading that little tidbit surprized me.Prior to that reading I had always thought Calvin was OSAS which would have made me at least a 1 point calvinist.

 

Thank you PlainoldBill for that nice post. Just a point of correction here - Calvin did not believe that someone could lose their salvation. Calvin taught the the elect are certain of regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. He taught that the regenerated elect will preservere in faith. Those that don't preservere in faith were never truly in the faith.

Think of it this way - rather than OSAS, Once Saved Always Saved, Calvin teaches that, for the elect, in terms of eternal decree, it's ASAS, Always Saved, Always Saved.

Preservation is the foundation of preserverence. We preservere because we are preserved. And this preserverence is in terms of FINALITY. Our faith may be severely weakened at times, and we may grow so faint of faith that we may seem to lose it for some time, but we will by God's design turn back to God having at last, having been refined through the manifold temptations of this life.

There are some Arminian Theologians that teach a doctrine of preserverence, but when they say preserverence, they mean that man must preservere in order to avoid being lost again. In other words, preserverence for them is an achievement that man strives for in order to be worthy of salvation. In the Calvinist system, preserverence is the EVIDENCE of God's work in us.

Arminian system: Preserverence causes salvation.

Calvinist system: Salvation (specifically, regeneration) causes preserverence.

See the difference?

And speaking of missionaries, most of the famous missionaries of history were died-in-the-wool Calvinists! The work of the Presbyterian missionaries should not go unnoticed by anyone interested in missionary histories. So many of them gave their own blood to bring the gospel to the uttermost parts of the world.

Keep learning and God bless!

 

Well truthfully I think a lot of what goes on is hair splitting and semantic gymnastics.I think most folks in truth who are Bible believers are closer in thier doctrine then they like to admit.Tweek a word here,change a comma or a semicolon there.I am not saying our theology is identical ,just nearer rather than farther then we think.
Now I have been asked if I speak in tongues and to that I say yes.They are thinking glossalalia and I am thinking chinese,korean,and italian.Am I Spirit filled,you bet, and people can understand me when I talk in tongues.Same word different meaning.