Mel Gibson, The Passion of Jesus Christ, and Baptists

Nuh-uh, the mormons just use different terminology, like Catholics do.
Go ahead and ask them if they believe in salvation by faith in Jesus. The answer is yes.
They also have an earthly infallible authority.
They also have other books apart from the Christian bible used as scripture.
There's really not that much difference when you look at it side by side.
Gina

 

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Was James telling a lie; or just ignorant about death? How do you explain this verse, and what is your defintion of death.

Mary is dead. The apostles are dead. When Saul prayed to Samuel he sought out the witch of Endor, who he thought could talk to the departed spirits of the dead. Dead people have no bodies and will not have bodies until the resurrection. Praying to the dead is necromancy--condemned in the Bible. This is the practice of the Roman Catholic Church. Understand very clearly: you pray to the dead: else what does dead mean??
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Excuse me, DHK, but I was agreeing with you when I said the folks we (Baptists) ask to pray for us aren't dead. Since we ask friends, relatives, pastors, etc. You read it wrong.

 

I am sorry Debbie. I read through the post again, and now realize that I should not have been so quick to answer. My apologies.
DHK

 

I would love to hear you explain this to a good friend of mine. I am not an exhaustive reference to the Mormon church, but he was not only a Mormon, but THE Mormon they sent out when they really wanted someone in their church. He can read you the Mormon church backward, forward, left, right, upside-down, and in the dark. He is Protestant now, and just as fervert about Christianity as he was about Mormonism. It's funny how he has done countless hours upon hours of research dedicated solely to the RCC and has really found no fault in it. He recognizes the RCC as a Christian Church.

But I will be sure to run your analysis by him next time I see him and report the results to you. Thank you.

On this note, I don't think this was James' talking point, anyhow. He was making a simple analogy between the flesh and the spirit. A person's body is dead, but their spirit is immortal. It would be necromancy if Catholics prayed to the earthly bodies of these people and not their spirits.

I used the dictionary as a happy medium because anything that you quote from is obviously going to be protestantly biased, and you would accuse me of being biased and heretical if I used anything Catholic. That was my only motive there, not twisting everything, which you seem fond of claiming about anyone who doesn't agree susinctly with you on all, things.

But, while we're on the topic of dead people and spirits and what-not I was wondering if you could explain these verses to me from your standpoint (on Purgatory). And remember...no personal interpretation.

1 Peter 3:18-20, 4:5-6
2 Timothy 1:16-18 (Paul praying for a dead friend)

Also, in 1 Cor. 15:36-49 it seems that Paul seems to be making the point that the fleshly body and the spiritual body are two completely different things, and that the spiritual body is seperate from the flesh and just living inside it. (the first Adam and the second Adam).

 

Deuteronomy 18:9-14 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

Merrill Unger "Unger's Commentary on the O.T.

Necromancy has nothing to do with the body. It has everything to do with communication with the dead—the departed dead spirits who have left their bodies.
James was making an analogy like you say. But he wouldn't make a false analogy would he? He wouldn't tell a lie in making an analogy. His analogy would be true. The separation of the spirit from the body is death.

It is not "protestant" biased. It is a Bible dictionary, published by Zondervan found in the front of my Bible. Most Bible dictionaries would say the approximate same thing. If you like I will quote a few more for you: Easton, Smith, ISBE, Wycliffe's, Unger's, etc. If I were biased I would go out of my way to purposely find a Catholic dictionary, or a fundamental Baptist dictionary. I did neither.

Hmmm. Explain without personal interpretation? Without personal interpretation could you explain what you just explained to me?

1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
--Christ went and proclaimed his victory to the disobedient spirits (fallen angels in Noah's age) which were in Hell—as described in Luke 16. Before the cross there was two compartments to sheol (the place of the departed spirits). The rich man went to Hell and lifted up his eyes, he saw Lazarus afar off in Abrahams bosom. He cried: "Father Abraham, send Lazarus that he may dip his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame."
The compartment of Sheol that the rich man was in is translated Hell in the Old Testament. It is the place of the departed spirits—this part was the unsaved. But he could see the part where the saved were—paradise. He could see Lazarus and Abraham afar off. Abraham answered the rich man: "Not so for there is a great gulf before us that no man can pass." A great gulf or chasm separated paradise and Hell. During the time between the death and the resurrection Christ went and proclaimed his victory to the disobedient spirits in Hell, and led the other saved O.T. saints from that paradise to Heaven with Him.
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
--Thus the meaning here—he led captivity captive. He led the captive saints from paradise to Heaven.
--There is no mention of purgatory, or no need to interpret any of these verses in the light of the doctrine of purgatory.

1 Peter 4:5-6 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
--God will judge all—the living and the dead.
In verse 6 the word "dead" is used in its natural sense. The gospel was preached to them that had just died—"that are dead." "That they might live according to God in the spirit." Peter was writing to a church undergoing intense persecution by Nero. These ones that had just died were alive in the spirit. Their judgement according to man really didn't matter all that much. They were with the Lord, and that is what mattered.

In 2Cor.5:1 Paul speaks of the body that we now have as just a tabernacle, a tent that we have for a temporary period of time. It houses our spirit that will live on forever. At the resurrection we will receive a glorified body like the Lord Jesus Christ. Perhaps our theology differs here. When I was saved many years ago by trusting Christ as my Saviour, God gave me eternal life. "The gift of God is eternal life" (Rom.6:23). From that time onward my spirit was made alive unto Christ. I will live for all eternity in Heaven. But when the resurrection comes I will live in my resurrected body for all eternity. A spirit has no body. Those in Heaven are still awaiting the resurrection. The body I will receive will be a glorified body—able to do many of the things that Christ's body was able to do after he arose, and yet still be a body of flesh. Thus the difference between the first Adam and the second Adam—the sinful flesh, and the glorified flesh—the corruptible will take on incorruption.
DHK

 

Because they are being Christian and unjudgmental. And, most importantly, because it really happened. </font>[/QUOTE]Dear Frozen:

I think you have been eating pabulum—probably frozen pabulum. There’s no virtue in being nonjudgmental. It simply means that your mind is out of gear while your engine is racing. The nonjudgmental person will eat any kind of garbage—he has no discernment between garbage and wholesome food. Nonjudgmental is not Christian. After all, doesn’t the Bible say that he who is spiritual judges all things?

BTW, you are not nonjudgmental because you did make a judgment.

 

My reference to 'judgement' was condemning someone, damning them to hell, putting them down, etc. as some on here do all too often.

 

DHK, with respect, you fail to understand Roman Catholic doctrine, teaching and practice. And you claim an omniscient power that only God has. How do you know the 'state' of a Roman Catholic's soul, and on what basis are you saying that the Roman Catholic Church is not a Christian religion?
You said, "consider the rosary." Okay, I will. But you obviously have not 'considered' it fairly. The Rosary points to Jesus. And 'praying to saints' is not WORSHIPPING them. It is asking them to pray for us here on earth. Yes, you could go 'straight to Jesus'. But then, when you're in 'trouble' why do you ask OTHERS to pray for you, when you could simply go 'straight to Jesus'? In my opinion, a 'Christian' could give his life to Christ, fall in to deep sin or apostasy, lose his salvation, yet all-the-while trust that he's still 'in' because of his adherence to 'once saved always saved'. THAT is a dangerous doctrine!!! I don't agree with every 'jot and tittle' that comes out of Rome, BUT, I find much-more to agree with than not. I'm afraid I probably couldn't say the same of you. </font>[/QUOTE]Drivel! The Roman Catholic doctrines of soteriology are heresy! Period! Whereas they may speak of faith in Christ and use orthodox-sounding language, they teach a false doctrine in practice. Their meaning and understanding is not Biblical teaching. It is tradition and syncretism. Essentially, they teach a works salvation involving sacraments, merits of the Saints, penance, etc. (See Ephesians 2) However, there may be a few individuals belonging to the Roman Catholic organization, not a church in the Biblical sense, who are saved because they have placed their faith in Jesus Christ. However, this has been done in spite of Roman Catholicism, not because of it.

In sum, those who believe and follow the Roman Catholic teachings for salvation are lost in their sins. This is not my opinion but this is what God has said. Therefore, Roman Catholic heresy cannot be tolerated since it deludes the minds of men and sends them straight to Hell. The RC teachings are heretical and if you find yourself in agreement with them, then you are heretical. Now, you decide.

 

Actually, I think all these are Protestant.

Okay, then what was this "paradise" that Christ led the saved spirits from? It couldn't be heaven if that's where He took them to, and it couldn't be Hell because Hell is not a paradise. Seems logical that it is Purgatory.

P,

Now I will do, in short, what you just did. The Baptists are hell-bound liars and heretics for being Baptist. What did that accomplish? Nothing.

 

Calm down and stay on topic people.
Gina

 

Then you are mistaken about what Catholics believe, according to the Catholics on here.
You have to see the humor in this...you as a stated baptist, here trying to tell people the truth about Catholic beliefs and adament that everyone listen, and now disagreeing with Catholics in the process.
A new belief system is being created...Batholocism. LOL
Gina

*Name calling of moderator deleted.*

[ March 15, 2004, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: Gina L ]

 

What name did I call you?
I apologize for trying to joke around with you.
Gina

 

To call someone who is making up their own religion is to say that they are sacriligious. I see nothing funny in that. I am also sorry that you don't agree with my defending my brother's faith, and not that I agree with everything they believe.

*slam against Protestants deleted*

So...there you have it. If you think that me defending my neighbor's faith is to create another religion, which in turn makes me sacriligious, then so beit.

[ March 15, 2004, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Gina L ]

 

All true.

But the RCC would have us believe that only the servants of Satan have power over the dead saints - as in the case of the witch conjuring up Samuel.

The RCC would also have us believe that it is doctrine of the faithLESS disciples of John 6 that we should follow after today.

At least they are consistent.

In Christ,

Bob

 

You may well be right.

Martin Luther is "another Roman Catholic" that we think highly of. So also Zwingly, Huss, Jerome and others. Roman Catholics that us non-Catholics hold in high regard.

However - the Passion is not designed to evangelize all on its own. Rather it creates an "opening door" with the unchurched non-Christian. Hollywood did not "do it all for us" - rather they have provided the perfect platform for drawing Christians together with non-Christians.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Actually...may I remind you that Hollywood had nothing to do with this movie...In fact, they were against it from the beginning. By Gibson making this movie, he will probably never again be able to work in Hollywood.

 

Up to this point in time, he personally has made over $400,000,000 on this film alone. There will still be more to come. He may never have to work again in Hollywood!
DHK

 

True, but we must remember that when talking about this film, that Hollywood in general was doing everything to discourage this film, to bring it a bad name. To keep people from seeing it. To give Gibson a bad name.

I think that God really is working through this movie, to bring beleivers closer to Him, like never before.

 

I know many many christians who have seen it, and many say they liked it, many spotted the errors, and not a one said it changed their lives or brought them closer to God.